The Swinging Monkey

exrigger

"oh don't forget we will also not tell you anything untill it has been left to late"

Do you mean like you have done for the past three years?

"there are those that cannot grasp change and do not learn from past mistakes"

yes, how true, so what's happening to them then? again after three years?

"so let the club et al gather the pledge money in and formally sort out the direction 'we' want to go to make sure this does not happen again"

"WE" won't have a say in it exrigger. From what I can gather, there is no 'we' at Bruntingthorpe - there's only ME!


"we cannot and have not done it without the support of people on this, other forums"

How sad then that you couldn't have used this very same forum to keep us all updated then, instead of us having to rely on TVOC website, which at best was/is third rate frankly!

I'm sorry to be so cynical about the whole thing, but I just wonder what is going to happen in about 12 months time, when Pleming makes his annual statement of 'give us more money or she's grounded' again. What will you all be saying to us then exrigger?


TSM

Exrigger

Hi TSM, thanks for your response, you have nicely quoted just parts of my post which misses the parts that go some way to answering them. We know the mistakes that have been made, lack of communication being the main one, we know who did not do things right and as I said we the club are hoping to make sure that there is no repeat of the last year or so.

But it will not happen straight away, as I said we still have to get the pledge money in which is what the committee/volunteers/staff are concentrating on. We still are not quite home and dry yet, so you have the likes off me to try and keep you up to date and at least make the effort.

In answer to your last comment

when the pledge money is in and the initiatives that are allready planned are put into operation it should be a totally diifferent operation from here on in.
What will I say if this does end up happening again despite all the clubs best efforts, it will be something along the lines of "you guys on here were right all along and they don't deserve this debacle to continue". But there again if I do not see any changes then I for one will withdraw my financial and other types of support and join the trust bashing as well, but I really do not believe at this moment that I will need to do that, as has been said only time will tell.

I hope that satisfies your curiosity

andrewmcharlton

Here's the thing.......how do you go from an £800k deficit (or whatever the figure is) to a balanced books and sustainable way of working?

Exrigger

I was going to try and explain, but I am not within the inner circle who have to agree and impelement the changes needed to provide a stable business model.
I think the ideas include increasing the membership,increase the income from the existing standing order scheme, the Fixed Flying Fund draw, fund raising schemes that will be introduced over the year,rather than panick mode when desperate and hopefully continue to get more business sponsoring with smaller amounts instead of awaiting the dream deal of a single sponsor, which would still be the ideal to definately secure the next few years, and last but not least the education element that has derfinately been a joke and is what the HLF money was given on the back of.

Another idea that has been suggested is going back to the HLF and asking for capital to move 558 to an airfield that is more suitable for operating from and is accessible to the public etc as part off the education push.

Sorry to waffle on, but this is just my take on what has been discussed over the last couple of months.

I know it won't satisfy some and that is fair enough, but as I have said the club, and hopefully now the trust, has started to wake up and smell the coffee, but as also said only time will tell.

Matt Jones

Can someone please clarify for me just how much money is needed? Originally I heard it was £850k, then became £900k. The big public target that everyone was aiming for was £1m which I assumed had some contingency in case not every one honoured their pledges therefore giving the £900k required. Someone's now saying over on the TVOC site they need £1.2m????

The Swinging Monkey

exrigger

Thanks for the explanation, but it seems like simply more of the same to me I'm afraid, forever holding on to this pipedream that someone like Branson is going to bale you all out. It won't happen! You must start getting your act together and that means everyone over there from the top down, but especially at the top.

I note from your comments and those of others on here, that there is no mention at all of a change at the top of the management structure, and with due respect to them, that is where I think the major problems lie.

It's time for a complete clear out, get in some new blood, someone with a bit of gusto and bravado, and get this project moving in the right direction instead of stumbling from one crisis to another.

If you screw it up this time, you will be finished for good!

Matt,
you won't get an answer because I don't think anyone really knows frankly, and that is one of the big problems with TVOC - no one sings from the same song sheet! Someone will tell you one thing and someone else will tell you something completely different. And all the time, the man at the top stays silent!!! The result is more confusion, more concern and less trust in them.

Harrier1980

I Think the £850k was the shortfall

£850k min, but just as much as possible to help pay off existing debts etc.

Cornerstone958

AMC
It's called creative accounting I believe
CS

Exrigger

TSM, thanks for your reply and I can only tell you as much as I have to date and as has been said the chances someone who is 'more in the know' could come and say the opposite. As much as I may agree with your comments, I do not think the changes at the top are likely, unless they go voluntarily, also I do not think that the club can influence those sort of changes but hope to be bigger part of the running of the 'operation'.

I will try to give my understanding of the pledge requirements. A financial plan/pie chart was produced for the 2009 operation of XH558, based on last years expenses and income, this left a shortfall of £850,000 to allow the project to operate throughout 2009, so as it is historical that approx 20% of pledgers do not honour their pledges, it was decided to make the target 1 mil. yes I know that it got a bit confused and different figures got released from different media outlets and with the forum to a certain extent, but it was allways aspirational to gain the higher figure.

If the pledge amounts are forthcoming within the next month and we get £850, 00 worth in then that will be enough to operate 558. Contingency money and build up a surplus to hopefully stop them rushing out at the end off this year will come from the club initiatives that I have tried to explain elsewhere. I think the message has got through that this historical approach to a crisis will never work again, so if they are serious they are going to have to implement the changes.

But be under no illusion if pledges are not honoured all the efforts will be wasted, that is unless a big sponsor does suddenly turn up (I know, I know, not likely).

Again someone will no doubt come along and say I have got it all wrong, but I am trying to keep the promise that we will keep other forums up to date as best we can, unlike in the past, but the bottom line is it is only my interpretation of what is on the VTSC forum/Web Site.

Just to say that the pledges are now over 1 mil

taxydual

Brunty.

Do the words 'Dirty' 'Laundry' 'Washing' 'In public' ring any bells?

Having contributed some of my hard earned, I'm a bit worried now about the latter part of your post. Infighting within any organisation doesn't bode well to the outside world.

Oh, and I'm part of the outside world.

tac2ils

What wonderful news! Even if the cynics are correct, at least it's another year flying.

My main point though -

I am only a periodical reader of this thread and even then don't read every word of every post, but what is coming through loud and clear is the general unrest aimed at TVOC and it's management, especially their lack of communication (tip of the iceberg I gather!).

As of 1300 on 10 Mar (some 4 days after the deadline) there is still no "You've done it! Thank you!" emblazoned across their website homepage. In fact the only obvious clue that 558 is saved for another year is a little link to a page informing us of how they intend to call in our pledges!!

TVOC, if you don't sort yourselves out, we, the public, are going to be less than supportive if you come calling again next year"

Tac2ILS

andrewmcharlton

Folks, very well dont to all those who pulled it off, congratulations.

A little while ago I sent off an FOI request and some may recall the HLF said they had no further requests for funding. Then there was some who ha about had they since that FOI was made etc, with tacit claims that they had in the intervening period. Well, I asked again, and here are the questions and answers supplied just an hour ago:

1. Please provide details of the ownership of the aircraft in the event the trust becomes insolvent or enters administration, specifically if the agreement between HLF and VTST provides for ownership of the airframe, spares and any other assets in such an eventuality. Please comment specifically if such a step on the part f VTST was contemplated and if the airframe would still be donated to Duxford IWM.

2. Please provide details of any power the HLF has to control, infuence or require VTST to provide reporting and financial statements to HLF on an ongoing basis

3. Please provide details of any requests, formal or informal, for further funding or extended support, whether accepted, rejected or pending, including any formal or informal advice HLF may have provided to VTST or their advisors, agents or representatives about the likely outcome or intentions of HLF if such an application was made by VTST.

4. Please confirm if any financial statements or management reports whether interim or final are passed to the HLF from VTST.

5. Please confirm if any of the terms of the grant were breached by VTST whether minor or material giving details thereof.

6. Please confirm if the funds granted to VTST have all been drawn down and if so when the final sums were paid.

7. Please confirm if the contractual arrangement between VTST and HLF provides for any punative or clawback sanctions if there is a material breach of the obligations by VTST.

Winco

Just to satisfy the likes of airsound..........

Dear Mr Pleming,
last friday, the great British Public saved Vulcan XV558 from the scrapheap by pledging a further £1,000,000.00 to the project. This was the third time you had asked for help at the last minute.

I am fairly certain that I am not alone when I say that I am hugely dissapointed (but not surprised) to find that you have not had the common decency to come onto this website, the key publishing website or indeed your very own web site to thank them all for their efforts!

As the CEO of this organisation you, more than anyone else involved, should have been on here to thank everyone for their unbelievable support and commitment once your latest figure was achived on friday.

Instead, all we hear from you once again is utter silence on these great public forums. It clearly displays your lack of appreciation to the British public and you should be ashamed at not having done so personally.

The Winco

Was that OK for you airsound, and what excuse are you going to come up with this time for Dr P's lack of comms ?

taxydual

Oh and this little gem from VTTS Latest News

Quote

Pledge Redemption
Monday, March 09,2009 - VTTS

The mechanism for pledge redemption is in hand,
don't panicall those who have pledged will be asked to
redeem the money in due course.

If you have already redeemed your pledge then
fear not we will hit you again for you to redeem it
again! and being real fans you wont have a
problem giving twice will you !!!!!!!!!!!

If you wish to make a donation in the mean time
please do so via the e-donate facility on the web
site.

Unquote

My bold, my italics.


Not only no word of thanks from Dr Pleming for peoples efforts, but a thinly veiled p1ss-take too!! 'you wont have a problem giving twice will you !!!!!!'. indeed.

I'm sorry 558. You won't get another penny from me. It's not your fault, but the idiots who think they can take the money and then laugh at the people who gave it.

Endex

The mechanism for pledge redemption is in hand, don't panic all who have pledged will be asked to redeem the money in due course.

If you have already redeemed your pledge then fear not we will hit you again for you to redeem it again! and being real fans you wont have a problem giving twice will you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you wish to make a donation in the mean time please do so via the e-donate facility on the web site.

hurn

Amazing how some people here get terribly over excited and can't wait to blow everything out of proportion!

Some of the people on the club forums, were a little over eager to 'settle up' and went and sent cheques off and e-donated before anyone had actually asked for pledges to be sent.
That statement is just a light hearted pop at those club members who did that, telling them they'll probably get asked for their pledge again as they go through the process of redeeming all the pledges.

I'm sure they wont be held at gunpoint to pledge again, although I expect some will be happy to do so.

While I can accept some criticism of TVOC is justifiable, some people just can't wait to have a dig over absolutely nothing.

PPRuNe Pop

Yes, it does seem that there is some perverse pleasure in making something out of nothing. That 'note' was light hearted banter in my view and so, not deserving of any snide remarks.

Please avoid any temptation to deride what has been achieved - one personal attempt to ridicule this is pointless.

Bye

One thing about this whole episode thats sticks out for me is this.

The volunteers involved with their Vulcan did a fantastic job to raise so much cash to save the ass of the VTST.

we have seen many unpaid volunteers on this and other forums asking for money, and well done to them for having the gumption to do so.

what we have not seen is the figurehead of the VTST on these forums asking for money.

The volunteers bust their guts to raise the cash and all unpaid.

The team that gets paid to raise money, and to market the charity seem to be rather absent from the public eye.

You the volunteers deserve better and quite honestly from what i have seen in my view the Vulcan Charity should be run by those very people who have achieved this feat.

Dr P states in his limited interview that things are said out of ignorance, well of course he is correct.

But it is his job to ensure that we the public are not ignorant of the facts or the true status.

still no long overdue accounts have been published.

just my views as an outsider.

Geoff

Cypherus

Thank you Andrew for the time you put into extracting the listed information from the HLF for there response lays too rest a number of issues that have been raised on this forum over the past months regarding the HLF’s role in current proceedings inside the TVOC.

That they state that all reports required were indeed presented long before the final monies were advanced to the TVOC confirms that they no longer have a financial responsibility for too the project in that all invoices regarding the expenditure of lottery advanced monies were presented as required and I am quite certain that should any irregularity have come too light in that transaction they would indeed have asked more that a few questions, that they did not may settle some of the arguments that have raged about this money.

As too Phleming, I for one cannot understand why people are getting for worked up about the man, that he remains stoically silent is in my view an absolute bonus, in fact if he never raises himself to speak again many I suspect would be rather pleased, for myself I do not want his thanks for the money I have pledged and will when asked supply as to accept same would imply tacit approval of his role and mediocre performance to date in the TVOC.

I will leave it with a simple thank you to all those that worked so very hard against all odds to put together this rescue package and too all those that offered money in these restrictive times to ensure that 558 continues too fly.

Flying Signman

Brunty558,

I must pick up on your point about Ostrich heads, which I find a little harsh given how many people have noted the changes being made.

Being on the Club committee, I can only say I have seen marked improvement over the last 6 months with 2 way communicatiuon between the Trust and Club now a regular feature.

I, and a few others, are actively involved in many projects that will help with the longer term funding issues, all with the full collaboration and support of Trust members. They all recognise how important this aircraft is to the Public and that it is this very stream of support that will be key to future success. The Pledge fund and its support has trully indicated that.

I really think it is time to bury your hachet at this critcal time, particularly on the Education issue - move on, and let the changes take effect.

There is simply no point in making the point over and over again, when the layperson here, will be quite capable of making their own judgements on the evidence they will see later this season.

Cheers,
F.S.

saracenman

it's a great shame that this thread seems to continue in never-ending circles; much of the issues and questions raised have been covered before.

even so, i understand why there is some confusion on certain issues - varying facts and figures which inevitably leave people wondering what the truth is underneath.

the following is only my way of explaining things - based upon the fortunate position that i have being in regular contact with some of the 'movers and shakers' in this whole affair.

firstly, the pledge was effectively to 'plug the gap' - the £828,453 shortfall published by Michael Trotter in early October. you can see the figures for yourself here: here

it is my understanding that similar pledge schemes typically enjoy an eighty-something percent 'honour' rate - so £1m in pledges would be required to satisfy £800,000 in actual cash terms.

with a lingering 'minus-sign' of that size hanging around VTS's neck, it would have been all but impossible to save the project from administration which, purely by default, would've prevented 558 from ever getting to another airshow. insolvency occurs when outgoings are greater than income - and with 558 locked in a box for the winter, there can be very little income of any sort - obviously.

with the actual CASH support from both Aerobytes and Judd Power, this enables the staff to actually be paid, something which a bunch of pledges can never do!

so, in simple terms, it enables 558 to make a fresh start this year with zero shortfall - she was effectively 'drowning' unable to even get her head above water - now though, at the very least, she is able to tread water!

next task is to be 'able to swim to shore' - now this is where i feel that the difference is when compared to previous crises. this time last year we faced a MUCH bigger hurdle - 558 herself hadn't even flown a second test flight, let alone got her PtoF. yes, there were management problems too which all added up to a gloomy future. i was arguably the most vocal on this issue - simply having a Vulcan which flew wasn't the be-all-and-end-all.

there never appeared to be any kind of forward planning other than the line we heard on daily basis - "once she gets to airshows, the sponsors will be queuing up!" eggs/basket me finks!

one year later and there most certainly IS a new focus, a new business plan, a new attitude and a new-found optimism - this time based very firmly on REALITY than on the previous pie-in-the-sky-ity!

communications ARE better (but still not 100% - definitely getting there though!) - the Club is ALREADY playing a much more prominent role, and VTST are listening to us like never before. i KNOW this to be the case because I'm directly involved, albeit on a minor level.

the Club is CURRENTLY gearing up for the usual fundraising activities, which ARE lucrative - don't forget that the Club have provided MORE funding than the HLF grant did. that will continue this year and for the foreseeable future.

both the Trust and Club ARE currently working on new ventures - two or three of which i am PERSONALLY involved in; these focus on increased publicity, increased Club membership and Education - all three of which WILL provide further income. these are not re-hashed exisiting concepts but brand new revenue-streams.

none of these things were even considered this time last year - some are already in place now whilst others are imminent. add to that an aeroplane that already has its 'ticket' and it's not difficult to see just how much better the whole things is RIGHT NOW!

my own personal belief is that this crisis point will NOT occur again year after year after year, but i can fully understand why some may think it will. I'm in no position to state that this will be the last time that money is tight - it certainly won't be - but the 'starting point' we have now is a MUCH better one than twelve months ago.

many may recall that within a week of 558's first flight, i was saying that VTS should NOT see it as the next chapter in 558's restoration - they should've seen it as the END of restoration and the BEGINNING of a whole new project! i was much castigated at the time, but i think that the last 17 months have proven that i wasn't that far from the mark.

what is happening now is very much the beginning of a new project - we have new people, new attitudes and a gleaming new focus.

should it have happened like this? no, of course not! all of these new attitudes should've been in place two years ago - but they weren't and we can't turn back time!

it's not a case of black and white, in that it hasn't miraculously gone from being hopeless to fantastic - nothing in life works like that! change HAS occurred and is CONTINUING to occur.

i KNOW that everyone WILL see for themselves exactly what I'm on about over the next few weeks and months. Rome wasn't built in a day - VTST may well have dug the foundations but sadly they leaned on their shovels for twelve months, wondering why no building magically appeared out of thin air!

now though, the concrete footings HAVE been poured, the bricks arrive next week and the chippies, sparkies and plumbers are booked!

sm