Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)
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We need TVOC...
...to go tits up, I think. That will force the HLF's hand viz-a-viz an investigation, and fix the immediate management problem at the same time, at a stroke. The aircraft will not evaporate in a puff of smoke if TVOC goes bust, and nor will the engineers or the people with the knowledge.
Giving TVOC money to continue to pee up the hangar wall in secret and nothing changes except donors get poorer and confidence in the project ebbs further.
I reckon the optimal way forward (as somebody not privvy to what is or has really been going on and fed up that his donations may well have been wasted) is to cut them off, donate not a bean, wait until the gravy train shudders to a halt and they are forced to account for themselves to the HLF and then hope that the Vulcan rises pheonix like from the ashes.
Giving TVOC money to continue to pee up the hangar wall in secret and nothing changes except donors get poorer and confidence in the project ebbs further.
I reckon the optimal way forward (as somebody not privvy to what is or has really been going on and fed up that his donations may well have been wasted) is to cut them off, donate not a bean, wait until the gravy train shudders to a halt and they are forced to account for themselves to the HLF and then hope that the Vulcan rises pheonix like from the ashes.
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i too can vouch for daddy flm.
Maybe people are coming out of the woodwork to try to make the public at large aware of the fact that all is not as it seems with the project and having heard that the aircrew also have doubts about the abilities of the management i am not surprised.
The £150k being banded about is only what they need for starters. if that money is raised by the public the debacle will continue for only a short time and come april/may the pleas for money will start all over again.
Daddy - next lifetime.
Maybe people are coming out of the woodwork to try to make the public at large aware of the fact that all is not as it seems with the project and having heard that the aircrew also have doubts about the abilities of the management i am not surprised.
The £150k being banded about is only what they need for starters. if that money is raised by the public the debacle will continue for only a short time and come april/may the pleas for money will start all over again.
Daddy - next lifetime.
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Thanks for the input Dave, and for the time you spent on the project, sorry too hear that like so many others you to have had trouble with the current club forum police but it was only to be expected once the original forum was killed off.
Question I ask though is this, if the TVOC has expended so much time, money and effort on getting the engineering staff qualified to work on 558, why do we now find the project stalled awaiting the return of MA staff, surely the whole idea of having in house certified staff was too make the TVOC a self contained operational facility reliant only on outside suppliers, not as we now see the MA company to complete any meaningful work on the airframe other than Anti-Dets. And if this is the case will they be beholding to them for the foreseeable future and at what cost.
Also, your point about the delay in obtaining this assistance until the end of April possibly has been one that has come up before but more along the lines of the management would certainly have know about this well in advance seems more than a little odd that it appears on the face of it that they did not take advantage of the
Progress that had been made over so many months it all seems to have been wasted to a large degree.
Public awareness at that time was high, yet for some reason was not capitalised upon instead we had numerous rather lame excuses as to why the test flights were not completed and had to watch puzzled while the staff all retired to a safe distance and the MA crew packed up their kit and left, seems now that they possibly knew what was going on inside the TVOC financially but the management as usual choose to keep silent on the matter leaving as we now see a large amount of cash being solicited to pick up the project yet again.
Andrew makes a good point on the FOI act and its possible use to lever the HLF into action and I agree that bitching about what has happened will not oblige the TVOC board to move one inch from their present course, but if as they say they are forced to close the project if they cannot guarantee the required finances are in place then possibly this might be the best course of action as in doing so they themselves would be obliged to step down leaving the way open for a replacement team to be appointed who might be more able too see the project too completion.
Question I ask though is this, if the TVOC has expended so much time, money and effort on getting the engineering staff qualified to work on 558, why do we now find the project stalled awaiting the return of MA staff, surely the whole idea of having in house certified staff was too make the TVOC a self contained operational facility reliant only on outside suppliers, not as we now see the MA company to complete any meaningful work on the airframe other than Anti-Dets. And if this is the case will they be beholding to them for the foreseeable future and at what cost.
Also, your point about the delay in obtaining this assistance until the end of April possibly has been one that has come up before but more along the lines of the management would certainly have know about this well in advance seems more than a little odd that it appears on the face of it that they did not take advantage of the
Progress that had been made over so many months it all seems to have been wasted to a large degree.
Public awareness at that time was high, yet for some reason was not capitalised upon instead we had numerous rather lame excuses as to why the test flights were not completed and had to watch puzzled while the staff all retired to a safe distance and the MA crew packed up their kit and left, seems now that they possibly knew what was going on inside the TVOC financially but the management as usual choose to keep silent on the matter leaving as we now see a large amount of cash being solicited to pick up the project yet again.
Andrew makes a good point on the FOI act and its possible use to lever the HLF into action and I agree that bitching about what has happened will not oblige the TVOC board to move one inch from their present course, but if as they say they are forced to close the project if they cannot guarantee the required finances are in place then possibly this might be the best course of action as in doing so they themselves would be obliged to step down leaving the way open for a replacement team to be appointed who might be more able too see the project too completion.
...to go tits up, I think. That will force the HLF's hand
It most certainly will and end any further potential financial support. I am a fatalist (some say doomsdayer), I think this project is as dead as a dodo. Individuals are going to find it extremely difficult to contribute to a fund that is clearly not showing their full hand. Let's face it, most of the 'little man' supporters are enthusiasts who read all manner of aviation Forums and will form an opinion based on what they read. I would have to be drugged to the eyeballs just to open my wallet in front of these people, let alone pull any money out.
I sincerely hope that I'm wrong, I would love to eat humble pie but I just can't see how the necessary money can be raised. What is needed is a Richard Branson type guy who hands over a wedge just for the love of aviation. No strings attached, no corporate logos everywhere, just for the hell of keeping the Vulcan flying.....................did I also say I was a daydreamer.
It most certainly will and end any further potential financial support. I am a fatalist (some say doomsdayer), I think this project is as dead as a dodo. Individuals are going to find it extremely difficult to contribute to a fund that is clearly not showing their full hand. Let's face it, most of the 'little man' supporters are enthusiasts who read all manner of aviation Forums and will form an opinion based on what they read. I would have to be drugged to the eyeballs just to open my wallet in front of these people, let alone pull any money out.
I sincerely hope that I'm wrong, I would love to eat humble pie but I just can't see how the necessary money can be raised. What is needed is a Richard Branson type guy who hands over a wedge just for the love of aviation. No strings attached, no corporate logos everywhere, just for the hell of keeping the Vulcan flying.....................did I also say I was a daydreamer.
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Question I ask though is this, if the TVOC has expended so much time, money and effort on getting the engineering staff qualified to work on 558, why do we now find the project stalled awaiting the return of MA staff, surely the whole idea of having in house certified staff was too make the TVOC a self contained operational facility reliant only on outside suppliers, not as we now see the MA company to complete any meaningful work on the airframe other than Anti-Dets. And if this is the case will they be beholding to them for the foreseeable future and at what cost.
Also, your point about the delay in obtaining this assistance until the end of April possibly has been one that has come up before but more along the lines of the management would certainly have know about this well in advance seems more than a little odd that it appears on the face of it that they did not take advantage of the
Progress that had been made over so many months it all seems to have been wasted to a large degree.
Public awareness at that time was high, yet for some reason was not capitalised upon instead we had numerous rather lame excuses as to why the test flights were not completed and had to watch puzzled while the staff all retired to a safe distance and the MA crew packed up their kit and left, seems now that they possibly knew what was going on inside the TVOC financially but the management as usual choose to keep silent on the matter leaving as we now see a large amount of cash being solicited to pick up the project yet again.
Andrew makes a good point on the FOI act and its possible use to lever the HLF into action and I agree that bitching about what has happened will not oblige the TVOC board to move one inch from their present course, but if as they say they are forced to close the project if they cannot guarantee the required finances are in place then possibly this might be the best course of action as in doing so they themselves would be obliged to step down leaving the way open for a replacement team to be appointed who might be more able too see the project too completion.
Also, your point about the delay in obtaining this assistance until the end of April possibly has been one that has come up before but more along the lines of the management would certainly have know about this well in advance seems more than a little odd that it appears on the face of it that they did not take advantage of the
Progress that had been made over so many months it all seems to have been wasted to a large degree.
Public awareness at that time was high, yet for some reason was not capitalised upon instead we had numerous rather lame excuses as to why the test flights were not completed and had to watch puzzled while the staff all retired to a safe distance and the MA crew packed up their kit and left, seems now that they possibly knew what was going on inside the TVOC financially but the management as usual choose to keep silent on the matter leaving as we now see a large amount of cash being solicited to pick up the project yet again.
Andrew makes a good point on the FOI act and its possible use to lever the HLF into action and I agree that bitching about what has happened will not oblige the TVOC board to move one inch from their present course, but if as they say they are forced to close the project if they cannot guarantee the required finances are in place then possibly this might be the best course of action as in doing so they themselves would be obliged to step down leaving the way open for a replacement team to be appointed who might be more able too see the project too completion.
MA still hold the engineering authority on the aircraft BAe the design auths. For reasons which I shall try not to go into (due to not wanting to be sued) TVOC are not deemed competent enough to be let loose in the big wide world with a real aircraft (its not a big boys toy)
I am not privvy too the money neede by MA from TVOC but I do know as has been mentioned by others that marshalls wiped a debt of over 2million owed too them so im sure you must agree before they go back they would rightly want the money up front. I am not sure how long TVOC have known about the lads unavailability.
As for going down the hlf route it would look like the better option and just hope that if somebody does pick up the gauntlet its done right next time.
Dave
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a few things
To try and summarise as much as possible in one post, I hope that this will answer many of the questions that some of you have about who I am, what I feel about TVOC and 558 specifically.
Firstly, I am a Vulcan to the Sky Club member and a regular contributor on the Club Forum. I have my own personal association with 558 herself which goes back some years and I am completely disconnected with TVOC in every way, shape and form. This itself is one of the reasons that I have always been one of 558’s biggest fans.
The email campaign
This idea was NOT that of TVOC or the Trust. In fact, all that TVOC had mentioned to ANYONE 11 days ago was the “Mayday Mayday” message on the homepage of www.tvoc.co.uk. At no time did TVOC ask anyone on the forum for ANYTHING but money – as usual.
One Club/forum member, using their own initiative, approached TVOC with the idea that an existing database that they held might be useful as a means of attracting media attention for the project’s current situation. This idea was APPROVED by TVOC and the Club/forum member, whose idea it was wrote the email and forwarded it to TVOC who then sent it out to the 6,000+ names on their database, without changing one single word of the Club member’s original.
Whilst this action has been labelled as ‘amateurish’ and ‘ridiculous’ on other forums, it can be proved, beyond doubt, that it had the desired effect; if you compare the actual wording of the original email to that of the Parliamentary EDM 1014, you can see that the latter could ONLY have come about as a result.
Similarly, the email was copied VERBATIM and used as the letter to the Daily Mail; this is further proof of the campaigns effectiveness. The fact that TVOC has today updated their webpage with the announcement that, “ David Taylor, MP for North West Leicestershire, presented the EDM to Harriet Harman ( Lord Privy Seal, House of Commons,) in parliament yesterday.” Goes a long way to demonstrate how effective this initial email campaign has been. Is can be argued that without the initiative of the Club (not TVOC), none of this would have occurred at all and 558’s future would stand little chance.
What I think is vital to point out is that none of this was either at the instigation of TVOC, nor at the request of TVOC. It was 100% the hard work of very many Club and forum members. What the vast majority of these people feel however is that, whilst it was urgent that something be done to raise NATIONAL awareness, they (including me) feel that the campaign to raise funds also, by default, raises money to pay the salaries of certain members of TVOC staff whose job we have effectively done for them!
As 558’s most loyal supporters, we are keen to ensure that TVOC do not rest back on their laurels and believe that the success of their fundraising campaign was of their own doing; the very second that they think that, it will only be a matter of time before they come running to us again asking for yet more money. As a loyal group of supporters of the aeroplane herself, very very few hold the same ‘love’ for TVOC themselves, particularly the way that are CURRENTLY running the project.
I know that it appears i have defended T.V.O.C but my words weresimply so that we may all witness 558’s return to display this year and for the next 10 to 15 years. As it stands, very few believe that the current TVOC management have the necessary skills to deliver that. We all continue to work very hard to raise awareness of 558 to the Nation that owns her, but we will NOT allow TVOC to take credit for actions that they have clearly demonstrated they are incapable of even thinking of let alone putting into practice.
I shall continue to post on here as well as other places, simply to enable the wider world to know more about what is going on with 558 than TVOC bother to tell anyone. It is not MY job to give out information or to defend TVOC – it is theirs and yet they appear to have done nothing about it. It IS my job however to do everything in my power to protect and preserve 558 herself, simply because I am just one of 60 million people in the UK that owns her!
Firstly, I am a Vulcan to the Sky Club member and a regular contributor on the Club Forum. I have my own personal association with 558 herself which goes back some years and I am completely disconnected with TVOC in every way, shape and form. This itself is one of the reasons that I have always been one of 558’s biggest fans.
The email campaign
This idea was NOT that of TVOC or the Trust. In fact, all that TVOC had mentioned to ANYONE 11 days ago was the “Mayday Mayday” message on the homepage of www.tvoc.co.uk. At no time did TVOC ask anyone on the forum for ANYTHING but money – as usual.
One Club/forum member, using their own initiative, approached TVOC with the idea that an existing database that they held might be useful as a means of attracting media attention for the project’s current situation. This idea was APPROVED by TVOC and the Club/forum member, whose idea it was wrote the email and forwarded it to TVOC who then sent it out to the 6,000+ names on their database, without changing one single word of the Club member’s original.
Whilst this action has been labelled as ‘amateurish’ and ‘ridiculous’ on other forums, it can be proved, beyond doubt, that it had the desired effect; if you compare the actual wording of the original email to that of the Parliamentary EDM 1014, you can see that the latter could ONLY have come about as a result.
Similarly, the email was copied VERBATIM and used as the letter to the Daily Mail; this is further proof of the campaigns effectiveness. The fact that TVOC has today updated their webpage with the announcement that, “ David Taylor, MP for North West Leicestershire, presented the EDM to Harriet Harman ( Lord Privy Seal, House of Commons,) in parliament yesterday.” Goes a long way to demonstrate how effective this initial email campaign has been. Is can be argued that without the initiative of the Club (not TVOC), none of this would have occurred at all and 558’s future would stand little chance.
What I think is vital to point out is that none of this was either at the instigation of TVOC, nor at the request of TVOC. It was 100% the hard work of very many Club and forum members. What the vast majority of these people feel however is that, whilst it was urgent that something be done to raise NATIONAL awareness, they (including me) feel that the campaign to raise funds also, by default, raises money to pay the salaries of certain members of TVOC staff whose job we have effectively done for them!
As 558’s most loyal supporters, we are keen to ensure that TVOC do not rest back on their laurels and believe that the success of their fundraising campaign was of their own doing; the very second that they think that, it will only be a matter of time before they come running to us again asking for yet more money. As a loyal group of supporters of the aeroplane herself, very very few hold the same ‘love’ for TVOC themselves, particularly the way that are CURRENTLY running the project.
I know that it appears i have defended T.V.O.C but my words weresimply so that we may all witness 558’s return to display this year and for the next 10 to 15 years. As it stands, very few believe that the current TVOC management have the necessary skills to deliver that. We all continue to work very hard to raise awareness of 558 to the Nation that owns her, but we will NOT allow TVOC to take credit for actions that they have clearly demonstrated they are incapable of even thinking of let alone putting into practice.
I shall continue to post on here as well as other places, simply to enable the wider world to know more about what is going on with 558 than TVOC bother to tell anyone. It is not MY job to give out information or to defend TVOC – it is theirs and yet they appear to have done nothing about it. It IS my job however to do everything in my power to protect and preserve 558 herself, simply because I am just one of 60 million people in the UK that owns her!
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I see no other way forward with this saga, other than directing serious attention towards HLF. Everything else is utterly pointless no matter how well-intentioned. Only HLF has any leverage with TVOC - they will inevitably ignore everybody else.
So, given that HLF will (judging from my past communications with them) be almost as difficult to motivate. They will do nothing unless all this bad feeling, energy and frustration is directed at them, and only them. They will claim that they can do nothing but of course that's nonsense. They're sitting on huge quantities of Lottery money and having already spent (mis-spent, if the project fails) a huge amount, then it would be ludicrous to allow the money to be written-off, when they only need to provide what is (proportionally speaking) another small amount to ensure that the aircraft flies for at least one air show season. If the aircraft still cannot find sponsorship after that, at least HLF could rightly claim to have done everything they could, and at least the project would have resulted in a few months of public appearances in exchange for all the money and hard work that has gone into it. If they refuse to get involved, we can rightly make a very public issue of how the HLF has again wasted a huge amount of money. It's a sound argument which (with enough pressure from the right people) ought to convince them that they will look pretty stupid if they don't step in.
Just as importantly, if they don't step in, the project is patently dead.
So, once again, I would ask everyone to ease-off on the recriminations, the opinions, the moans and gripes. Likewise, I'd ask everyone to forget about all these "publicity campaign" ideas, petitions, letters to MP's and all the rest. It just gives the impression that there are some well-meaning eccentrics out there who think that flying the Vulcan would be a nice idea. Nobody (especially TVOC) is going to take any of this stuff seriously.
If (like me) you're sick of reading the endless misery, then I would urge everyone to do something constructive and forget all this pointless nonsense. Use your energy and enthusiasm to find someone (or some people) who have the ability to present a proper case to HLF, to convince them that they can't afford to allow this project to end in failure when they have put so much money into it. They and they alone have the ability to save it easily at a stroke.
So come on - all these Ppruners... where are the RAF chiefs, the industry chiefs, the media commentators, the high-profile MP's, the celebrities... There must be some lurking around on here, or if not, I'm pretty sure more than a few of you must know a few people that ought to be approached?
Let's not sit-back and grumble the project into oblivion. There's a simple solution which would easily save the project, if only this rabble of muttering and disorganised campaigning was properly co-ordinated and (most importantly) aimed at the right target.
So, given that HLF will (judging from my past communications with them) be almost as difficult to motivate. They will do nothing unless all this bad feeling, energy and frustration is directed at them, and only them. They will claim that they can do nothing but of course that's nonsense. They're sitting on huge quantities of Lottery money and having already spent (mis-spent, if the project fails) a huge amount, then it would be ludicrous to allow the money to be written-off, when they only need to provide what is (proportionally speaking) another small amount to ensure that the aircraft flies for at least one air show season. If the aircraft still cannot find sponsorship after that, at least HLF could rightly claim to have done everything they could, and at least the project would have resulted in a few months of public appearances in exchange for all the money and hard work that has gone into it. If they refuse to get involved, we can rightly make a very public issue of how the HLF has again wasted a huge amount of money. It's a sound argument which (with enough pressure from the right people) ought to convince them that they will look pretty stupid if they don't step in.
Just as importantly, if they don't step in, the project is patently dead.
So, once again, I would ask everyone to ease-off on the recriminations, the opinions, the moans and gripes. Likewise, I'd ask everyone to forget about all these "publicity campaign" ideas, petitions, letters to MP's and all the rest. It just gives the impression that there are some well-meaning eccentrics out there who think that flying the Vulcan would be a nice idea. Nobody (especially TVOC) is going to take any of this stuff seriously.
If (like me) you're sick of reading the endless misery, then I would urge everyone to do something constructive and forget all this pointless nonsense. Use your energy and enthusiasm to find someone (or some people) who have the ability to present a proper case to HLF, to convince them that they can't afford to allow this project to end in failure when they have put so much money into it. They and they alone have the ability to save it easily at a stroke.
So come on - all these Ppruners... where are the RAF chiefs, the industry chiefs, the media commentators, the high-profile MP's, the celebrities... There must be some lurking around on here, or if not, I'm pretty sure more than a few of you must know a few people that ought to be approached?
Let's not sit-back and grumble the project into oblivion. There's a simple solution which would easily save the project, if only this rabble of muttering and disorganised campaigning was properly co-ordinated and (most importantly) aimed at the right target.
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on behalf of bubblesuk
bubblesuk seems to have some problems with access at the moment and has asked me to post HIS words on HIS nehalf
To try and summarise as much as possible in one post, I hope that this will answer many of the questions that some of you have about who I am, what I feel about TVOC and 558 specifically.
Firstly, I am a Vulcan to the Sky Club member and a regular contributor on the Club Forum. I have my own personal association with 558 herself which goes back some years and I am completely disconnected with TVOC in every way, shape and form. This itself is one of the reasons that I have always been one of 558’s biggest fans.
The email campaign
This idea was NOT that of TVOC or the Trust. In fact, all that TVOC had mentioned to ANYONE 11 days ago was the “Mayday Mayday” message on the homepage of www.tvoc.co.uk. At no time did TVOC ask anyone on the forum for ANYTHING but money – as usual.
One Club/forum member, using their own initiative, approached TVOC with the idea that an existing database that they held might be useful as a means of attracting media attention for the project’s current situation. This idea was APPROVED by TVOC and the Club/forum member, whose idea it was wrote the email and forwarded it to TVOC who then sent it out to the 6,000+ names on their database, without changing one single word of the Club member’s original.
Whilst this action has been labelled as ‘amateurish’ and ‘ridiculous’ on other forums, it can be proved, beyond doubt, that it had the desired effect; if you compare the actual wording of the original email to that of the Parliamentary EDM 1014, you can see that the latter could ONLY have come about as a result.
Similarly, the email was copied VERBATIM and used as the letter to the Daily Mail; this is further proof of the campaigns effectiveness. The fact that TVOC has today updated their webpage with the announcement that, “ David Taylor, MP for North West Leicestershire, presented the EDM to Harriet Harman ( Lord Privy Seal, House of Commons,) in parliament yesterday.” Goes a long way to demonstrate how effective this initial email campaign has been. Is can be argued that without the initiative of the Club (not TVOC), none of this would have occurred at all and 558’s future would stand little chance.
What I think is vital to point out is that none of this was either at the instigation of TVOC, nor at the request of TVOC. It was 100% the hard work of very many Club and forum members. What the vast majority of these people feel however is that, whilst it was urgent that something be done to raise NATIONAL awareness, they (including me) feel that the campaign to raise funds also, by default, raises money to pay the salaries of certain members of TVOC staff whose job we have effectively done for them!
As 558’s most loyal supporters, we are keen to ensure that TVOC do not rest back on their laurels and believe that the success of their fundraising campaign was of their own doing; the very second that they think that, it will only be a matter of time before they come running to us again asking for yet more money. As a loyal group of supporters of the aeroplane herself, very very few hold the same ‘love’ for TVOC themselves, particularly the way that are CURRENTLY running the project.
I know that it appears i have defended T.V.O.C but my words weresimply so that we may all witness 558’s return to display this year and for the next 10 to 15 years. As it stands, very few believe that the current TVOC management have the necessary skills to deliver that. We all continue to work very hard to raise awareness of 558 to the Nation that owns her, but we will NOT allow TVOC to take credit for actions that they have clearly demonstrated they are incapable of even thinking of let alone putting into practice.
I shall continue to post on here as well as other places, simply to enable the wider world to know more about what is going on with 558 than TVOC bother to tell anyone. It is not MY job to give out information or to defend TVOC – it is theirs and yet they appear to have done nothing about it. It IS my job however to do everything in my power to protect and preserve 558 herself, simply because I am just one of 60 million people in the UK that owns her!
To try and summarise as much as possible in one post, I hope that this will answer many of the questions that some of you have about who I am, what I feel about TVOC and 558 specifically.
Firstly, I am a Vulcan to the Sky Club member and a regular contributor on the Club Forum. I have my own personal association with 558 herself which goes back some years and I am completely disconnected with TVOC in every way, shape and form. This itself is one of the reasons that I have always been one of 558’s biggest fans.
The email campaign
This idea was NOT that of TVOC or the Trust. In fact, all that TVOC had mentioned to ANYONE 11 days ago was the “Mayday Mayday” message on the homepage of www.tvoc.co.uk. At no time did TVOC ask anyone on the forum for ANYTHING but money – as usual.
One Club/forum member, using their own initiative, approached TVOC with the idea that an existing database that they held might be useful as a means of attracting media attention for the project’s current situation. This idea was APPROVED by TVOC and the Club/forum member, whose idea it was wrote the email and forwarded it to TVOC who then sent it out to the 6,000+ names on their database, without changing one single word of the Club member’s original.
Whilst this action has been labelled as ‘amateurish’ and ‘ridiculous’ on other forums, it can be proved, beyond doubt, that it had the desired effect; if you compare the actual wording of the original email to that of the Parliamentary EDM 1014, you can see that the latter could ONLY have come about as a result.
Similarly, the email was copied VERBATIM and used as the letter to the Daily Mail; this is further proof of the campaigns effectiveness. The fact that TVOC has today updated their webpage with the announcement that, “ David Taylor, MP for North West Leicestershire, presented the EDM to Harriet Harman ( Lord Privy Seal, House of Commons,) in parliament yesterday.” Goes a long way to demonstrate how effective this initial email campaign has been. Is can be argued that without the initiative of the Club (not TVOC), none of this would have occurred at all and 558’s future would stand little chance.
What I think is vital to point out is that none of this was either at the instigation of TVOC, nor at the request of TVOC. It was 100% the hard work of very many Club and forum members. What the vast majority of these people feel however is that, whilst it was urgent that something be done to raise NATIONAL awareness, they (including me) feel that the campaign to raise funds also, by default, raises money to pay the salaries of certain members of TVOC staff whose job we have effectively done for them!
As 558’s most loyal supporters, we are keen to ensure that TVOC do not rest back on their laurels and believe that the success of their fundraising campaign was of their own doing; the very second that they think that, it will only be a matter of time before they come running to us again asking for yet more money. As a loyal group of supporters of the aeroplane herself, very very few hold the same ‘love’ for TVOC themselves, particularly the way that are CURRENTLY running the project.
I know that it appears i have defended T.V.O.C but my words weresimply so that we may all witness 558’s return to display this year and for the next 10 to 15 years. As it stands, very few believe that the current TVOC management have the necessary skills to deliver that. We all continue to work very hard to raise awareness of 558 to the Nation that owns her, but we will NOT allow TVOC to take credit for actions that they have clearly demonstrated they are incapable of even thinking of let alone putting into practice.
I shall continue to post on here as well as other places, simply to enable the wider world to know more about what is going on with 558 than TVOC bother to tell anyone. It is not MY job to give out information or to defend TVOC – it is theirs and yet they appear to have done nothing about it. It IS my job however to do everything in my power to protect and preserve 558 herself, simply because I am just one of 60 million people in the UK that owns her!
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Vickyv.
Not quiet certain your correct with that statement but I have to admit that I am suprised that out of the months of training shelled out for by the TVOC it still has no engineers qualified to work on the Airframe unsupervised by MA. I guess someone upstairs slightly overlooked too mention that along the way...... maybe!.
Not quiet certain your correct with that statement but I have to admit that I am suprised that out of the months of training shelled out for by the TVOC it still has no engineers qualified to work on the Airframe unsupervised by MA. I guess someone upstairs slightly overlooked too mention that along the way...... maybe!.
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Unfortunately Tim it looks now as if the only way forward is for the project too fail and some other organisation to take the reigns and run it properly.
It certainly seems too have gone to far downhill not just on the money side but on all sides. I am not being a doom and gloom merchant just being realistic, I realise not everybody knows all the facts and that has lead to some wild and some very close to the mark rumours on all the forums which a lot of people have taken offence too but these are the people who now need to sit back understand that it is NOT just about the funding. There are many other issues that need too be addressed.
Dave
It certainly seems too have gone to far downhill not just on the money side but on all sides. I am not being a doom and gloom merchant just being realistic, I realise not everybody knows all the facts and that has lead to some wild and some very close to the mark rumours on all the forums which a lot of people have taken offence too but these are the people who now need to sit back understand that it is NOT just about the funding. There are many other issues that need too be addressed.
Dave
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Hi Tim
I do think you are misjudging the impact of the "well-meaning eccentrics" - which I must say comes across as a fairly patronising turn of phrase.
There is evidence here and elsewhere that stories in newapapers are raising awareness, money is coming in etc etc. I mean blimey, if you look at the TVOC homepage even they've been doing something! I'm not suggesting for one minute that this might save the project alone, but a total waste of time, I think not and hope not.
The issue many will have with letting it run its course is the worry that it might fall so flat on its face that it'll never get up again. If it does and someone else picks up the project then that is all well and good but
I don't think anyone can expect the significant number of people who support this project and our aviation heritage in general to stop doing what they can or stop seeking answers - as eccentric as that might sound.
Gareth
I do think you are misjudging the impact of the "well-meaning eccentrics" - which I must say comes across as a fairly patronising turn of phrase.
There is evidence here and elsewhere that stories in newapapers are raising awareness, money is coming in etc etc. I mean blimey, if you look at the TVOC homepage even they've been doing something! I'm not suggesting for one minute that this might save the project alone, but a total waste of time, I think not and hope not.
The issue many will have with letting it run its course is the worry that it might fall so flat on its face that it'll never get up again. If it does and someone else picks up the project then that is all well and good but
I don't think anyone can expect the significant number of people who support this project and our aviation heritage in general to stop doing what they can or stop seeking answers - as eccentric as that might sound.
Gareth
Last edited by gareth herts; 29th Feb 2008 at 15:41. Reason: Spelling
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Can i refer you to saracanmans post above which he posted on my behalf.
It outlines what we the club members NOT tvoc have been attempting.
It outlines what we the club members NOT tvoc have been attempting.
Are you and all the other club members "well-meaning eccentrics"?
Fair play to you.
Gareth
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gareth
refering to bubblesuk's words above i feel it's important to remind people that TVOC are currently riding a wave of publicity soley initiated by the Vulcan to the Sky Club members and NOT the actions of themselves.
we as forum/club members have been banging on for months to see TVOC keep the homepgae up to date - now they have, but sadly on the backs of much determined (free) the efforts of many club members!
sm
refering to bubblesuk's words above i feel it's important to remind people that TVOC are currently riding a wave of publicity soley initiated by the Vulcan to the Sky Club members and NOT the actions of themselves.
we as forum/club members have been banging on for months to see TVOC keep the homepgae up to date - now they have, but sadly on the backs of much determined (free) the efforts of many club members!
sm
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Whilst this action has been labelled as ‘amateurish’ and ‘ridiculous’ on other forums, it can be proved, beyond doubt, that it had the desired effect
Okay, what desired effect is that? I don't see any. Okay, a few column inches for the Hate Mail but that's not got the Vulcan any nearer flying has it?
Okay, what desired effect is that? I don't see any. Okay, a few column inches for the Hate Mail but that's not got the Vulcan any nearer flying has it?
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Saracenman,
Thanks for taking the time to explain, much appreciated
I just hope (as do most I think) that sensibility somehow prevails, and that the money that is so desperately needed actually gets to the aircraft, rather than being soaked up by a myriad of sponges that will do little or nothing to see this aircraft ever fly again.
Thanks for taking the time to explain, much appreciated
I just hope (as do most I think) that sensibility somehow prevails, and that the money that is so desperately needed actually gets to the aircraft, rather than being soaked up by a myriad of sponges that will do little or nothing to see this aircraft ever fly again.
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Bubbles and Saracen
Saracen - I hope you didn't think I was giving them any credit? Most of us should be aware by now that much of the positive action & news has been generated by people other than those managing the project.
Bubbles - Cut the text you want to quote, paste in to your new post, make sure it's highlighted and click the furthest right hand button on the tool bar above - it wraps it all up as a quote.
There might be an easier way but that's how I do it!!
Bubbles - Cut the text you want to quote, paste in to your new post, make sure it's highlighted and click the furthest right hand button on the tool bar above - it wraps it all up as a quote.
There might be an easier way but that's how I do it!!
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Tim
The project through various "amateurish" and "ridiculous" emails has been brought to the attention of various MPs and a number of ministers. This campaign has also brought tv and radio exposure thus high lighting the project. We on in the club and forum do as much as we can and it has to be said has produced greater results than, banging out the same old rants on various forums. Believe it or not i actually to a certain degree think you are on the right lines, however to patronise our attempts is rather offensive. Why if you havent already -recruited a lawer etc to further you ideas?
The project through various "amateurish" and "ridiculous" emails has been brought to the attention of various MPs and a number of ministers. This campaign has also brought tv and radio exposure thus high lighting the project. We on in the club and forum do as much as we can and it has to be said has produced greater results than, banging out the same old rants on various forums. Believe it or not i actually to a certain degree think you are on the right lines, however to patronise our attempts is rather offensive. Why if you havent already -recruited a lawer etc to further you ideas?