Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)
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From the release that took 4 days to concoct
Seems like this inept Chief Exec still sees all of the other venues it is attending as fair game to cancel.
He should step down now.
Quote:
Robert Pleming, VTST Chief Executive: “On behalf of the Vulcan to the Sky Trust, I would like to apologise unreservedly for the huge disappointment felt by very many people, some of whom had traveled great distances, at the absence of the Vulcan from the flying display. The events leading to the cancellation of the Vulcan’s displays are deeply regrettable, and we will do everything we can to prevent this happening again at Waddington.”
Robert Pleming, VTST Chief Executive: “On behalf of the Vulcan to the Sky Trust, I would like to apologise unreservedly for the huge disappointment felt by very many people, some of whom had traveled great distances, at the absence of the Vulcan from the flying display. The events leading to the cancellation of the Vulcan’s displays are deeply regrettable, and we will do everything we can to prevent this happening again at Waddington.”
Seems like this inept Chief Exec still sees all of the other venues it is attending as fair game to cancel.
He should step down now.
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I'm sure I'm not alone in now being confused about who actually owns the aircraft and bears responsibility for operating the aircraft. Which organization is the operator as per CAP 632 in this VTTS/TVOC/Marshals set-up? What are the functions of the CEO and Engineering Manager of the Trust and for what is the Trust actually responsible? Are Marshals really delegated and contracted as both the operator and the maintenance organization?
Under CAP 632 an aircraft owner wishing to fly an aircraft under a Permit to Fly is responsible for setting up an operational organization and producing the Organizational Control Manual (refer esp. to Annexe A), . Some or all of these functions can be delegated and/or sub-contracted (ref. CAP 632 Ch 4 Para 3), but overall responsiblity for both the operation of the aircraft and its continuing airworthiness remains with the owner/operator.
My own original understanding was that the Trust was the owner, TVOC was delegated the responsibility for the operational organization and Marshals were contracted for maintenance and as the design authority. Are we now to understand that Marshals are responsible for flight operations, maintenance and design and neither the Trust nor TVOC have any responsibility for anything?
Operator and Accountable Management; VTTS Trust or Marshals; which is it?
Under CAP 632 an aircraft owner wishing to fly an aircraft under a Permit to Fly is responsible for setting up an operational organization and producing the Organizational Control Manual (refer esp. to Annexe A), . Some or all of these functions can be delegated and/or sub-contracted (ref. CAP 632 Ch 4 Para 3), but overall responsiblity for both the operation of the aircraft and its continuing airworthiness remains with the owner/operator.
In simple terms, Marshall Aerospace is , effectively, the operator of XH558. VTST can only do anything to the aircraft, including fly it, on direct authorisation from Marshall Aerospace
Operator and Accountable Management; VTTS Trust or Marshals; which is it?
Last edited by Blacksheep; 7th Jul 2009 at 11:21.
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The ownership is on the permit as, so they are indeed the operators
Owner Details
Ownership Status
Registered Owners:VULCAN TO THE SKY TRUST
BRUNTINGTHORPE PROVING GROUND
BRUNTINGTHORPE
LUTTERWORTH
LE17 5QS
CofA / Permit:Permit to FlyValidity Expiry:02/07/09
Owner Details
Ownership Status
Registered Owners:VULCAN TO THE SKY TRUST
BRUNTINGTHORPE PROVING GROUND
BRUNTINGTHORPE
LUTTERWORTH
LE17 5QS
CofA / Permit:Permit to FlyValidity Expiry:02/07/09
Last edited by NutLoose; 7th Jul 2009 at 10:10.
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which may be the crux of the matter.........
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bjcc
Yes, I am well aware of what the CAA site says, but you ommitted a couple of things, such as it costs another £400.00!! but lets not worry too much about that now.
The big thing that you have ommitted is the fact that this bunch of amatures did NOT satisfy the edit from the CAA about NDT checks when the original permit was issued 12 months ago. It was NOT an oversight, it was just ignored, and based on that one point alone, the aircraft was NEVER going to get a permit prior to Waddington was it?
A vendetta?? maybe you are correct now. But I am sick to death of watching this iconic project being run by a bunch of incompetant fools who are patently out of their depth big time. This weekend has been a classic example of that.
When Pleming and the others at the top go, and a management team is appointed who know a little bit about what they are doing then I, like thousands of others, will stop bleating about it and start donating again. Until then I fear the project is doomed and that is all down to sheer incompetance frankly. Or don't you agree??
Yes, I am well aware of what the CAA site says, but you ommitted a couple of things, such as it costs another £400.00!! but lets not worry too much about that now.
The big thing that you have ommitted is the fact that this bunch of amatures did NOT satisfy the edit from the CAA about NDT checks when the original permit was issued 12 months ago. It was NOT an oversight, it was just ignored, and based on that one point alone, the aircraft was NEVER going to get a permit prior to Waddington was it?
A vendetta?? maybe you are correct now. But I am sick to death of watching this iconic project being run by a bunch of incompetant fools who are patently out of their depth big time. This weekend has been a classic example of that.
When Pleming and the others at the top go, and a management team is appointed who know a little bit about what they are doing then I, like thousands of others, will stop bleating about it and start donating again. Until then I fear the project is doomed and that is all down to sheer incompetance frankly. Or don't you agree??
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Well said, I had a reminder for my last pledge arrive in the post even though I had tried to sort it online and I have now written to them asking how I stand legally as to paying it, I have given them a couple of hundred pound in the past, but no more until these Stumbling bumbling fools depart
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Don’t doubt it has not moved and probably will not for several more days at least, According too the release issued by VTST member on another venue, the CAA was not happy with the proposals being put forward that would allow the TVOC to continue to fly the A/C on a fresh Permit unless they answered a number of questions, he was not specific as to what these were but alluded too the time scale in preparing this report as the major obstacle, not the actual failure to conduct the specific work required initially that had been deferred from the original major now over 12 months ago.
The NDT testing on 603 as I understand it was to have been undertaken on major components in conjunction with the scrapping of 603, an airframe that steadfastly refuses too co-operate and remains intact, if now short of a few parts.
That this NDT work has not happened meant that the Permit was never going to be issued, something that the TVOC management team was well aware of yet on the face of it did little or nothing to accelerate the programme and allow the deferred reports to be written up and submitted to the relevant authority, that they allowed this situation too come about without making alternative arrangements is crass in the extreme, as usual they have not seen fit too comment on the matter apart from having Phleming issue yet another public apology neatly diverting attention too everyone involved but themselves.
However is anyone here at all surprised at there attitude and is this not exactly what the public has been complaining about since the TVOC began operating, total lack of transparency, bumbling management structure, poor performance of certain members of the management team and the exhibition of utter contempt for the public who too date have given so freely of there money.
That this sorry situation has come about lays squarely at the feet of the current trustees, it is they that need to be addressed on this matter and they alone that can do anything constructive too put in place a management team that can direct this operation in the manner required to ensure an efficient team geared to display XH558 for the foreseeable future.
The NDT testing on 603 as I understand it was to have been undertaken on major components in conjunction with the scrapping of 603, an airframe that steadfastly refuses too co-operate and remains intact, if now short of a few parts.
That this NDT work has not happened meant that the Permit was never going to be issued, something that the TVOC management team was well aware of yet on the face of it did little or nothing to accelerate the programme and allow the deferred reports to be written up and submitted to the relevant authority, that they allowed this situation too come about without making alternative arrangements is crass in the extreme, as usual they have not seen fit too comment on the matter apart from having Phleming issue yet another public apology neatly diverting attention too everyone involved but themselves.
However is anyone here at all surprised at there attitude and is this not exactly what the public has been complaining about since the TVOC began operating, total lack of transparency, bumbling management structure, poor performance of certain members of the management team and the exhibition of utter contempt for the public who too date have given so freely of there money.
That this sorry situation has come about lays squarely at the feet of the current trustees, it is they that need to be addressed on this matter and they alone that can do anything constructive too put in place a management team that can direct this operation in the manner required to ensure an efficient team geared to display XH558 for the foreseeable future.
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Thanks
Over the years, I have often popped in here to see what some of the rest of the world has to say... and it has always been quite motivating.
I can sit here, knackered & stressed at the end of yet another long day but the misinformed, hostile attacks on VTST just give me that extra kick I need.
You just keep on stoking my fire with your vitriolic rantings & we'll keep on funding the world's only flying Vulcan and a team that might not always be perfect but that has achieved something most of you will never even dream of.
Oh - and it isn't just me, there's another 10,000+ of us that also don't share your point of view. Some got seriously scarred by last weekend's screw-up but most of them now appreciate that 'black & white' rarely applies to complex project-management & decades old aircraft.
I can sit here, knackered & stressed at the end of yet another long day but the misinformed, hostile attacks on VTST just give me that extra kick I need.
You just keep on stoking my fire with your vitriolic rantings & we'll keep on funding the world's only flying Vulcan and a team that might not always be perfect but that has achieved something most of you will never even dream of.
Oh - and it isn't just me, there's another 10,000+ of us that also don't share your point of view. Some got seriously scarred by last weekend's screw-up but most of them now appreciate that 'black & white' rarely applies to complex project-management & decades old aircraft.
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Eddief, to quote your own words some six years ago on the Concorde thread...
Some straight honest talking from Pleming and the team would go along way...
Like everyone on this forum, I certainly don't want to fuel any angst or frustration but I am desparately keen to find out the *facts* so that I can try to understand what has happened - God knows, I'm going to be a whole lot happier if somebody can convince me that this was actually necessary.
a quick couple of points,
My understanding, it's not NDT, NON destructive testing that needs carrying out on 603 its DT, Destructive testing hence they can't do it on 603. [though I am not sure to what extent this testing is required]
RP is chairperson of the VTST aswell as CEO of same company, unless things have changed recently.
And saying they will do what they can so this doesn't happen again at Waddington isn't saying a lot really as the new permit will now run out after Waddington airshow in future years, assuming it stays on the 1st w/e of July.
I may also be splitting hairs but it wasn't 10,000+ people donating it was 10,000+ donations - I know a few who donated many more times than once.
My understanding, it's not NDT, NON destructive testing that needs carrying out on 603 its DT, Destructive testing hence they can't do it on 603. [though I am not sure to what extent this testing is required]
RP is chairperson of the VTST aswell as CEO of same company, unless things have changed recently.
And saying they will do what they can so this doesn't happen again at Waddington isn't saying a lot really as the new permit will now run out after Waddington airshow in future years, assuming it stays on the 1st w/e of July.
I may also be splitting hairs but it wasn't 10,000+ people donating it was 10,000+ donations - I know a few who donated many more times than once.
eddie f, I'm one of the 10,000 who wholly agrees with you!
should of added, that with 2.6 million quid sitting in the bank, VTST could of bought 603 from Bae-systems, chopped err up themselves, kept all the bits they needed and had a nice cockpit for the "village", and done the checks they needed for the permit
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Eddie, I was one of the 10,000 but no longer. My confidence, support and passion has been drained to the extent that there will be no more financial support from me................ever. I'm sure I'm not alone.
Initially it seemed to be run very well and to their credit they achieved something momentus and remarkable but over the last 18 months they seem to have lurched from one crisis to the next displaying woefully inpet project management and a steadfast refusal to keep the public informed. Lessons are not being learned.
I hope that if it can't make Yeovilton this weekend that they give us more notice.
Initially it seemed to be run very well and to their credit they achieved something momentus and remarkable but over the last 18 months they seem to have lurched from one crisis to the next displaying woefully inpet project management and a steadfast refusal to keep the public informed. Lessons are not being learned.
I hope that if it can't make Yeovilton this weekend that they give us more notice.
Now I heard a story several months ago that the plans to scrap XM603 at Woodford had been put on the backburner since it still has a lot of fuel in it and it's not going to be easy to get it out.
I was told that one organisation had told BAe that they would happily do the job - for £150,000.
If true, that would make your eyes water!
I was told that one organisation had told BAe that they would happily do the job - for £150,000.
If true, that would make your eyes water!
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Your right about BAE wanting the fuel removed from XM603 prior 2 anything being done with it, in fact fuel being kept in the tanks back when it was kept in ground running condition is the reason that work was stopped on the aircraft at that time.
Someone in health and safety went mad that the aircraft was being kept with fuel in the tanks decided this was unsafe and that was the end of the aircraft being kept in running condition, to make matters worse someone else then made the decision the ladders the team working on XM603 had used were unsafe and all work to stop on the aircraft
As for XH558 well what can you say, its a total farce you would have thought that at Waddington they would have taxied the aircraft at the very least, many people have asked why this did not happen but as per usual no explanation is forthcoming and a quick look at the website tonight shows no update on the permit to fly issue, for crying out loud do TVOC actually understand the meaning of communication they are taking the publics money therefore have a responsibility to keep the public informed of whats being done with that money, still one thing TVOC are good at is not replying to e-mails I have tried 3 times to inform them the webpage that allows you to enter the monthly lottery type thing to raise funds does not work and guess what no reply and no working webpage, I know someone who owns 3 shops he wrote to TVOC to try and find out about having collection tins for the project in his stores and never even got a response, I've given a fair amount over the years and done my own small bit to try and get others to donate but not anymore I'm fed up with it all.
Someone in health and safety went mad that the aircraft was being kept with fuel in the tanks decided this was unsafe and that was the end of the aircraft being kept in running condition, to make matters worse someone else then made the decision the ladders the team working on XM603 had used were unsafe and all work to stop on the aircraft
As for XH558 well what can you say, its a total farce you would have thought that at Waddington they would have taxied the aircraft at the very least, many people have asked why this did not happen but as per usual no explanation is forthcoming and a quick look at the website tonight shows no update on the permit to fly issue, for crying out loud do TVOC actually understand the meaning of communication they are taking the publics money therefore have a responsibility to keep the public informed of whats being done with that money, still one thing TVOC are good at is not replying to e-mails I have tried 3 times to inform them the webpage that allows you to enter the monthly lottery type thing to raise funds does not work and guess what no reply and no working webpage, I know someone who owns 3 shops he wrote to TVOC to try and find out about having collection tins for the project in his stores and never even got a response, I've given a fair amount over the years and done my own small bit to try and get others to donate but not anymore I'm fed up with it all.
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eddief,
Your little rant is your own, it is not shared by as many as you would like to think.
No-one to my knowledge has ever questioned the ability and dedication of those who have worked so hard on the project. That, has NEVER been in question.
However, please do not try to defend the indefensible. Unless you have been living on another planet the root cause here at this moment in time is that a major blunder occurred that rocked the project once more. And it is all too simple really. Someone did not do their job! The paperwork as I have said is the 'soul' of the aeroplane. Without it, it will not fly. Wild ideas have been espoused about how 'deals' have been done etc., This is all about peeing in the wind.
At one time I operated 27 aircraft, all with commercial a CofA, all with AOC's and all with quality engineering back-up. This aircraft is AOG! No proper paperwork, no-one seemingly chasing those responsible and everyone guessing when the CAA will 'perform.' They won't, not until all the i's and t's are dotted and crossed.
So please don't high horse your theories and cover ups. Accept that there is a major mistake. The managers of the project are TVOC the engineers are Marshall's
We defend the posters here just as we rebuke them if they step over the line but right now that has not been necessary.
The management need to get out from whatever they are under.
Your little rant is your own, it is not shared by as many as you would like to think.
No-one to my knowledge has ever questioned the ability and dedication of those who have worked so hard on the project. That, has NEVER been in question.
However, please do not try to defend the indefensible. Unless you have been living on another planet the root cause here at this moment in time is that a major blunder occurred that rocked the project once more. And it is all too simple really. Someone did not do their job! The paperwork as I have said is the 'soul' of the aeroplane. Without it, it will not fly. Wild ideas have been espoused about how 'deals' have been done etc., This is all about peeing in the wind.
At one time I operated 27 aircraft, all with commercial a CofA, all with AOC's and all with quality engineering back-up. This aircraft is AOG! No proper paperwork, no-one seemingly chasing those responsible and everyone guessing when the CAA will 'perform.' They won't, not until all the i's and t's are dotted and crossed.
So please don't high horse your theories and cover ups. Accept that there is a major mistake. The managers of the project are TVOC the engineers are Marshall's
We defend the posters here just as we rebuke them if they step over the line but right now that has not been necessary.
The management need to get out from whatever they are under.
