saracenman

TM - as I've tried to point out on several occasions, I'm probably the last person that many would expect to say anything good about TVOC (the generic name for VTST) - i have been one of their most ardent critics.

the fact that i appear to have 'changed my tune' is not a simple case of black and white - there is a swathe of grey in the middle!

i too still have questions about who does what, and how much they are paid for doing/not doing it. it is healthy that such discussions as you describe continue - as long as they are fair, well informed and constructive. i will stand by what i have already said - the new Management structure at Brunty might not be the dream-team that 558 could've done with, but what there is now is 100% better than at this time last year.

the general attitude used to stink to high-heaven, and they could appear amazing blinkered to all around them - but this HAS changed; late in the day maybe, not a clean-sweep either, but what IS currently in place has cheered me greatly in recent months.

as far as 558's ownership is concerned - well you didn't ask who it is that controls it, but who owns it!

the Trust are in control of 558 - a board of Trustees, comprised of some very eminent people committed to 558 from 'day one' quite how policy is decided i don't know, but these aren't 'Tom, Dick 'n' Harry from down the pub'

sm

srobarts

Surely the right route forward is not to let it fold but to have a change of leadership that inspires confidence so that support comes back.
Pleming has actually achieved a lot in getting the Vulcan back in the air, when so many said it couldn't be done - that is not to say that there weren't mistakes along the way in getting it into the air again.
In all my commercial life projects like this have had a change of leadership at each phase, because quite simply new skills are needed for each phase. We have had the rebuilding of XH558 we are now on to the development of the project and maintenance of income flow.
The Vulcan is back in the air, it needs now a leader who will keep it there.
Hopefully someone who is more marketing orientated and the call for support accentuates the positives of this project and what it will deliver in the future and not the perpetual "if we don't pay it will never fly again" message.

Tim McLelland

how policy is decided i don't know

Think that's part of the problem - nobody does!

Sorry if I didn't clarify what I was getting-at. It just seems to me that even if the aircraft is effectively under the control of a group of people, there still should be one person who has ultimate control and I wondered whether despite the TVOC arrangements, it might be David Walton who retained the actual ownership? But as you say, it's all very murky and it's hard to know precisely how they stand legally.

I think it's important to know, as if (or when) these muppets finally disappear, it raises questions as to what happens next. I think it fair to say that there are people out there who might be interested in taking-on the project but like so many of us, they just don't want to get involved at all while the current TVOC people are still there, going nowhere.

Saracenman, I hope your optimistic view is right and that we'll all be pleasantly surprised in due course. But, cynic that I am, I have to say that I haven't seen anything to suggest that anything has changed at all and I fear that even with the best will in the world, nothing significant will happen while the same people are running the project. But we'll see... fingers crossed?!

andrewmcharlton

Legally it is crystal clear, not murky at all.

The Trust, as a legal entity, own the aircraft.

Flying Signman

For all those not clear on the facts on funding, from the front page of the Vulcan to the Sky Website - Dated 2nd February:



With the increased marketing and promotional activities I see being developed, it only needs a few good features or an editorial in a national paper to see the pledge scheme really take off.

OK, things can be better, but if the project fails at this point, I honestly can't see anything being salvaged that will give us a flying vulcan again.

With a full airshow season ahead, it will be the ideal time to prove what has been learnt from last season and hopefully management will be better able to meet everyones expectations.

It is your free choice to decide, but fail her now, (yes the aircraft) and there will be every chance you will never see the changes in management you consistantly ask for - put simply - there will be no project left to manage.

I for one, are adding to a pledge I have already made.
Hope a few more can join me too.

Cheers,
FS

Delta15

I have asked this a number of times recently...


Below, from their website, is the existing management structure, what has changed recently?

Dr Robert Pleming MBCS CITP ARAes

Chief Executive

We all ready know most peoples feelings about Dr R.

Michael Trotter
Business Development Manager

He has been there a couple of years?

Andrew Edmondson
Engineering Director

Mike Pollitt
Operations Manager

He has been there a couple of years?

Colin Marshall
Logistics Manager

Denis Parker
Visitors Manager

Miriam Tong
Education Manager

She has been there about 18-9months?


The rest have been in post a number of years…..what/who has changed recently?

Apart, that is, the departure of your arch enemy and who do you consider to be non-productive, of what is left?.

saracenman

I never saw Rusty as 'my arch enemy'!

certainly i was constantly amazed at the way in which she dealt with things, and yes i did cross swords with her on a number of occasions. even so, i have always pointed out that i have the greatest respect for the commitment she showed to 558 over the years.

Rusty's retirement has enabled many changes to occur - not least of which is her day-to-day duties being undertaken by Michael Trotter who, as i understand it, had previously been employed on a consultancy basis only. he's now 'Mon-Fri 9-5'

i have spoken to Michael on several occasions now and, from the outset, i found him to be a very forthright and straight-talking person, aware for the problems and challenges. he was a little bemused not to have heard anything of my own endeavours and, after i had the opportunity to explain them, he promised to follow up on them as a matter of importance. this he has done - and within a few days! prior to Michael's new post, i had banged my head against the brick-wall for over 12 months, but now two particular concepts have been discussed further, to the point where they can finally become reality later in the year.

he was determined to publish detailed figures for all to see - something which we Club members have been screaming for for nearly 2 years now; true to his word, the figures appeared when he said they would!

ALL my emails are now answered within 24 hours - usually within 2 hours! just speaking with Michael Trotter, it is easy to detect the change in attitude at the top - the attitude to Club members and the public alike. Michael certainly means business and is not afraid to confront things rather than sweeping them under the carpet as it appeared was the general policy before.

also, since October last year, the actual structure of 'TVOC' has changed; it is now firmly separated into 3 specific 'departments' concerned with Engineering, Operations and Commercial. each has the rigidly defined structure and defined rôle that they lacked before. the one thing that was clearly missing in the past was organisation - i lost count of the number of times that i heard lines such as "well i wasn't aware, otherwise it would have been dealt with"

even those at the very top have admitted to me that "internal communication is woeful" some months ago, and i recall questioning just what defined structure there actually was up at Brunty - did any of the employees actually have job descriptions? it wasn't difficult to see just how shocking the so-called organisation was - it's no wonder that so many blunders were made, so many missed opportunities and just why we are in the mess we are in now.

in addition, the importance of the educational aspect of 558 has finally been realised; it has always been treated as an 'also-ran' with very little core focus on activities and interest for children. i have been banging on and on and on for months just how vital and pivotal the education programme is - get that right, and everything else will grow as a result. Michael Trotter certainly agreed with me on that one, saying that 2009 will see a huge 'push' in that direction.

TVOC's attitude toward the Club has also seen a major change. we appeared to be nothing more than a 'cash cow', constantly being relied upon to bail them out time and time again. even at the Farnborough Airshow, the Club's representatives suddenly found that their accommodation (paid for by the Club i hasten to add, not the Trust!) had been purloined for use by others, meaning that the Club had no presence at the airshow at all!

the vital importance of the Club, and the need to increase its membership (and therefore funding for 558) is now realised for what it is - VITAL! the newly appointed Press Officer, as i have mentioned previously, is not 'another TVOC cronie' but a Club member - if that isn't a indication of faith in and respect for the Club, i don't know what is!

isn't it interesting to note that, in his recent website update, Dr. Pleming says, "...if 15,000 supporters were to pledge just £4 per month then (with Gift Aid) the target would be met." - well I'm not sure what he defines as supporters, but the Club (aka the core of support!) can boast less than 10,000 doesn't this demonstrate just how important it is to swell the Club's numbers considerably?

so, in conclusion, there's definitely a new attitude, a new outlook, a new focus, and a new realism. TVOC and the Club seem more 'united' than ever before which is long overdue, especially as we are all fighting on the same side!

i hope that sheds a little light on why my own opinions seemed to have turned around in such spectacular fashion - it might not be the be-all-and-end-all that is so desperately needed for 558, but it is a bloody good start!

sm

Exrigger

SM: Whilst I normally support your views and concur with most of what you have said in the past, but so far all I have seen is words promising of changes, things happening in the background, things coming up later in the year. Yet none of this is visible 'now', there might not be a later in the year, and things need to be out front, not being worked on in the background as it will not do any good if these arrive to late to achieve the target by the new pledge deadline. The only work and initiatives that I visibly see are those by the Club members and some off those might end up being to little to late, though I continue to contribute and help in the background as it is my wish to see 558 back where she belongs as the video so eloquently puts it.
I still await with baited breath, as do the people I talked into buying tickets, what is going to happen on Saturday with the Raffle draw.

saracenman

you might be surprised to know Exrigger that i completely agree!

what i am at pains to point out, is that my change of opinion is merely to demonstrate just how different things are from this time last year. I'm not trying to fool everyone into thinking that all is well at Brunty,and that all problems have been fixed - far from it.

what cannot be ignored however, is that in February last year, we faced exactly the same situation - the statement from Keith Mans (Chairman of VTST) on February 18th warned, in no uncertain terms, that it looked like 'curtains' at the end of that March.

whilst i was one of the many determined not to fail, i was extremely sceptical that we could succeed, as 558 hadn't even had a second TF at that point, and i was also aware just how inept the management were at the time.

my 'new found optimism' seems to have been misunderstood - i am not automatically optimistic this time around, because of the financial situation. what i am trying get across is that i feel that 558 stands more chance this time around than last - not only because of what i have already said about the management changes, but also because 558 doesn't have the TF and PtoF hoops to jump through this time round!

as ever (and what i haven't changed my tune about) it is publicity and awareness that will be the only realistic saviour of 558, now and in the future - i was proved right 12 months ago, and this time around i have more confidence that publicity and offers of assistance will not be squandered in the way that they were before.

in short, I'm not saying IT'S GREAT - i am saying that IT'S BETTER

sm

Delta15

SM

I like most of your opinions but am a little disturbed/unsure, by the following..

Quote...in addition, the importance of the educational aspect of 558 has finally been realised; it has always been treated as an 'also-ran' with very little core focus on activities and interest for children. i have been banging on and on and on for months just how vital and pivotal the education programme is -

Why have you not got involved in the education aspects of the project?
I have seen requests from Mrs Tong on their web site for volunteers/Vulcan ambassadors, have you thought of doing something like this?

Quote...Even at the Farnborough Airshow, the Club's representatives suddenly found that their accommodation (paid for by the Club i hasten to add, not the Trust!) had been purloined for use by others, meaning that the Club had no presence at the airshow at all!

Are you saying that the Trust actually stole the accomodation that was paid for by the club? Isn't that Theft or Fraud or miss-appropriation of club funds?

This is a very serious accusation perhaps someone from the club committee or the Press Officer can confirm or deny this??

Quote....isn't it interesting to note that, in his recent website update, Dr. Pleming says, "...if 15,000 supporters were to pledge just £4 per month then (with Gift Aid) the target would be met." - well I'm not sure what he defines as supporters, but the Club (aka the core of support!) can boast less than 10,000 doesn't this demonstrate just how important it is to swell the Club's numbers considerably?

Didn't I read somewhere that there is something like 25,000 VTS Friends?, is it not possible Dr Bob is referring to these as his supporters as well as the club?

who do you consider to be non-productive, of what is left?.

You still seem to duck this one, you have oft repeated there was rot or dead wood in the management team so why won't you say who you are referring to?

Tim McLelland

The thing that really astonishes me is that when you're reminded of the details of this set-up, you have to ask yourself why there are so many people supposedly working every hour they can on this project and yet very little progress ever seems to be made. How the hell does the operation of one aircraft require this whole entourage? It's quite absurd. Little wonder that so much money has been wasted. What the hell do all these people actually do all day?! Silly question I know, as they're incapable or unwilling to ever tell us!

saracenman

ok - let me try and deal with each question/comment in turn.

when i first spoke to Miriam Tong back in March/April last year, she told me of the Vulcan Ambassador scheme, suggesting that it 'might be right up my street'. i did express interest at the time but, at her suggestion given the insecurity of the whole project at the time, i deferred any further thought on this until much later.

i did look again at it and, contrary to what Ms Tong had described some moths before, the position was Brunty-based, and i live many hundreds of miles away! i did have some email contact with her after that, whereupon i suggested a meeting with her (and one of the most respected people within 558's realm had offered to accompany me to the meeting) - sadly this was rebuffed by Ms Tong in a somewhat curt and undiplomatic way! funnily enough, the main purpose of my proposed meeting was to offer TVOC a unique 'product', tailored to TVOC's requirements, aimed specifically at children. sadly i was unable to even talk with her about it at all - now however, Michael Trotter has discussed this with me and, as soon as the present crisis is averted, he wants to develop this further. i am being intentionally vague as to the nature of this, for obvious reasons!

NO I AM NOT SAYING THIS AT ALL!

please do not put words into my mouth! and as far as I'm concerned (as a Club member, supporter and donor) i do not think warrants further discussion! just put it down to all manner of factors at the time - the uncertain weather, pre-booking of accommodation without even knowing if 558 would be there, etc - things that none of us can possibly be aware of! i only made mention of it as an example of how, despite the co-existence of the two, the Club always seemed to come at the bottom of the list!

Quote:

Didn't I read somewhere that there is something like 25,000 VTS Friends?, is it not possible Dr Bob is referring to these as his supporters as well as the club?

well i hope you are right, obviously! what i do know is that when i was involved in the mass email campaign this time last year, our administrator only had around 8,000 names on the database to contact. i know our numbers have grown since then, but i would be astonished if they grew by 17,000+

as ever, i stand to be corrected!

Quote:

You still seem to duck this one, you have oft repeated there was rot or dead wood in the management team so why won't you say who you are referring to?

yes i do don't i?

i don't know about you, but i think it wholly inappropriate to discuss people by name when i have not had much (if any) personal contact with them! i will gladly use Rusty's name, and that of Michael Trotter as i have had direct contact with them; in the same way, i would have no problem with them using my name appropriately!

i will not be drawn on names of others for the very simple reason that, however trustworthy my sources of information maybe, it's still third-hand information and therefore nothing more than 'hearsay'.

i have spoken with many of the 'key people', some over a considerable time-scale, and yes there are some names that crop up! as yet, there has never been any conflicting views either!

i hope that clears a few things up

sm

Delta15

Tim

I can see Saracen Mans three prongs.. Commercial, Engineering & Operations... with possibly logistics reporting to Engineering.... Visitors & Education reporting to Commercial..... Operations..well thats the aircrew innit.
1 CEO, 3 senior managers, & 3 junior managers = 7man management team 'bout right for a small engineering company with a very wide and unique interest base.. wouldn't you think?

SM
thank you for your thoughts ears are still ringing a bit and Mrs Tong.... well nuff said.......?

The only other person on that list that I have had contact with, was the visitor manager, whome I met in the hangar one sunday and I found him very interesting and extremely knowledgeable about the aircraft and the project histories.

saracenman

i imagine that you're referring to Denis - he prides himself on being able to answer any 558 question you can think of!

very knowledgeable bloke

sm

The Rocket

Delta 15,

I note that you're incredibly supportive of Mr Parker in your posts, and also incredibly scathing toward Ms Tong and the education aspect of the Vulcan project. Cynics among us may suggest that the education aspect threatens the position of the "Access Manager" who as you quite rightly point out, has been there since the beginning of the project, due to his previous role with XH558 with the BAH.

I also note how you structure your replies in much the same manner as Mr Parker on the TVOC forum, answering questions individually with much use of bold case. Finally, I also note how in your previous replies, you appear to have 'behind the scenes knowledge' as it were, and also appear to be of the exact age and location of Mr Denis Parker.

Is there something you're not telling us perchance?

saracenman

is he allowed to 'phone a friend?

sm

andrewmcharlton

Think he's already had 50 /50 and the audience has spoken.....

G4136

Earlier, Saracenman said...".....what cannot be ignored however, is that in February last year, we faced exactly the same situation - the statement from Keith Mans (Chairman of VTST) on February 18th warned, in no uncertain terms, that it looked like 'curtains' at the end of that March."

Who is Chair of the Trustees now?

Exrigger

I find it quite interesting reading the comments on this forum and UKAR re 558 and the trust, and comparing some of the VTSC forum comments about these two sites, they do seem somewhat diametrically opposed , IMHO of course.

andrewmcharlton

I hadn't ventured out on to UKAR before but had a look having read your post.

Now I am glad I hadn't as it simply seems an extension of the official forum.

I see one recent posting even says if you want to whine go away we don't want to hear it, good to see that all views are heard and respected. Mind you, only half of that last statement applies here on occassions only joking....