Tim McLelland

No news from the great TVOC press machine I take it?

SFCC

Right.....
I'm not bothered enough by all of this to trawl throught the entire thread, but I have been watching from afar and have donated some money to this debacle.
I think it is high time you lot stopped your pissing contest.
All I am interested in is whether we will be seeing the aeroplane on the display circuit in 2009 or not.
No waffle from TM, or arguments from other quarters.

Will it fly again....yes or no?

andrewmcharlton

Not the most charming response ever seen. If you want the answer to your question you will probably need to do some trawling somewhere as it's the answer we're all searching for.

Tim McLelland

That is kinda funny though - just hijack a thread and demand that everybody shuts-up and answers your question. You're not Jeremy Paxman by any chance?

Evanelpus

Whilst not the most elequently put question I've seen on PPruNe, it does raise a good point.

There are thousands of people out here who have donated to the TVOC in some way because they want to see the Vulcan fly on a regular basis. I'm not sure if they would have donated so readily if they knew/felt that it was a one season wonder.

At what point this year will TVOC have to say Yes or No to a flying programme for 558?

Tim McLelland

The answers to both questions - and every other question - lay with TVOC, quite obviously. Needless to say, getting an answer about anything is (and always has been) virtually impossible.

PPRuNe Pop

For the whingers and whiners and those who repeat the questions again and again - the answer is in the hands of those who complain to the governing bodies and other authorities. Funny that those who complain most are the ones who do nothing.

If all we are going to hear about XH588 is how TVOC won't do this or that etc.,.........the thread is not worth keeping open. Time to act.

PPP

Tim McLelland

Bit of a sweeping statement isn't it? Presupposes that all the "whiners" haven't already complained or tried to take some action... maybe they have? Likewise, it's a bit of a sweeping statement to make a judgement on whether one person thinks a thread is "worth keeping open" isn't it?

I'm tempted to say that if you think all of this talk is a waste of time (and I have to admit that I'm inclined to agree with you) then why not talk to the Pprune Administrators and see whether Pprune can make some effort to make more official enquiries to TVOC, HLF, Government, CAA or anyone else you care to think of? Pprune is (technically-speaking) a publisher, and represents the views of many people, so you'd certainly have enough "clout" to deserve some decent answers, if nothing else. The opportunity to actually do something is there...

Able Archer

Whilst this long running and long suffering thread continues to follow the UK economy, you have to review what is fact.
Lots of hugs and kisses to supporters, workers, sponsors, aircrew and VOC in getting this aircraft to where it is.
VTTS decided a long time back to take the long road to success which has high risk.
It took a good ten years for the sea vixen to return to flight, so VOC should never announced that the aircraft in 1999 will be flying in 2000.

VOC have been taking our hard earned cash of us for 10 years now. The £40 name on the bomb bay door was the first of many fleeces. In fact they are in breach of the law and you can reclaim the £40 through the online small claims court in Northampton if anyone wants a refund.
I have personally decided VTTS will not get 1p from me until they become more transparent.
Unlike other charities in this expense zone, they have seemed to employ any one who passes the gates at the air field. They really have to stop doing this. They base a £2m annual fundraising budget on volunteers to dream up ideas. Most of the ideas bring in £500 - £1000 a time. Very nice income if you are a Morris Men group or a local dramatic company. But sadly flying a Vulcan is not in that category.

I see the latest cash generator is a days shooting with the VOC management of which £17 of the £39 ticket go's to keeping the Vulcan flying. Limited to 32 places = £ 544 profit BEFORE expenses of VOC staff travelling to the venue for the day and any out of pocket expenses.

As repeated elsewhere, non engineering salaries are a huge chunk of the budget, but all charities have this people in these positions. Terry Wogan get's paid for hosting Children In Need, it happens.
Then we have the trustees, a bunch of guys to oversee a continuing failing charity. As I have said before they give the impression of lacking any corporate backbone. With the charity on the brink, they really should be a little more active in the day to day running of it.
Suggest: Existing non engineering staff to work a 3 day week until fully funded - that includes the CEO. Once fully funded give notice to all non engineering staff and request they reapply for the jobs. Interview board should include people from other charity based organisations. Right skills for the right position.
Pay off creditors, and leave Bruntingthorpe for a more attractive airfield with all the facilities to handle the aircraft, and not get fleeced for a high hangar rental agreement which currently I believe is around £10K - £15k a month.
Start sucking up to your die hard supporters a bit, learning to say sorry be open and you might find some cash will come your way.

Tim McLelland

In David Walton's defence, I believe the hangarage would still be free had it not been for one particular former member of the TVOC group. Just one example of how money has been wasted I'm afraid.

Lister Noble

I'm sitting here wearing a Vulcan to the Sky bodywarmer that I bought at a local airshow ,Rougham, to which I flew last year.
The Vulcan flew low over my house ,probably on the way to Lowestoft airshow last year and I thought that it was a marvellous site.

Two things now suprise and concern me.

1-I went to my local flying club last week for a social visit,and was wearing my Vulcan body warmer,the CFI who taught me to fly,ex RAF,50 years professional flying from Lightnings to Harriers and still teaching people to fly said.

"Why are you wearing that rubbish,there are just as many people wanting it not to fly including the CAA as there are wanting it to fly,it would be better if they put their money into something that meant more in the history of the Britain,like building a Mosquito etc"

2-I did not realise that the Vulcan project is now so much at risk due to the various reasons explained in this thread.

I wonder how many of the general public who gave and have now probably forgotten about it would feel if they knew what was going on?

Sorry if this is repetition and I'm not sniping at anyone,but can't struggle through the entire thread.

It's all very sad.
Lister

Tim McLelland

I don't think anyone wants it not to fly - although I accept that there are many people who simply don't care one way or the other. There are certainly lots of people who think the idea was a non-starter right from the beginning though. As for the CAA, I think it would be unfair to suggest that they don't want it to fly, as they've done a lot to expedite it's progress in fact, and ultimately it's not down to the CAA to express their view one way or the other. As a regulatory body, they are (or at least should be) concerned only with the aircraft's condition and safety standards. The problem is that the CAA have set themselves such ridiculously over-ambitious standards that it makes the operation of any complex aircraft almost impossible. This is my gripe with the CAA - they have taken the regulatory process to the extreme to the point at which it has gone beyond all reasonable issues of safety and into the realms of sheer stupidity - as witnessed by the B-17 insurance saga and so on. Unfortunately, they are in a position where everybody assumes that their word is law, and nobody is entitled to ask on what basis they reach such ludicrous decisions. Ultimately, it's down to the Government to dictate how the CAA operates, but I don't think anyone has the will to try and persuade anyone within the Government to start asking questions about how the CAA operates. Besides, nobody in the Government would have any interest in getting involved. As far as they're concerned, the CAA does a good job keeping us all safe from any risk of hair-brained warbird operators who run the risk of dropping their planes into our back gardens.

It's true that there would probably be more enthusiasm for the project if it was a Mosquito rather than a Vulcan, but then a Mosquito would be infinitely cheaper to restore and operate. Sadly, the majority of people in this country still have a mind-set which assumes that history ended in 1945 and they don't seem able to grasp that in its own way, the Vulcan was just as important as any WWII aircraft, indeed in one respect it is more important as without it we might well all be dead by now. But most people fall victim to the assumtion that if an aircraft didn't drop bombs over Germany, then it has never served any purpose of any significance. It's almost impossible to make some people understand that the whole point of the Vulcan was to ensure that it was never used for the job for which it was designed. If it had been used to deliver Yellow Suns to the USSR then it would have been a failure by definition. Sadly, Joe Public isn't bright enough to grasp that fact, so for most people, the Vulcan is simply a pretty aeroplane, and therefore of no great importance.

As I've said many times before, the 558 saga was a great idea full of potential but it's doomed, no matter how you look at it. Clearly, it is way too expensive to operate, given the regulatory processes that we're stuck with in this country. The only question is whether it can survive in flying condition for a while, and what happens to the aircraft once it is accepted that it cannot continue to fly - at least in this country. My disappointment is that far too many people have been involved with the project who have been ill-equipped to do the job, and who have evidently been more interested in making a few bob out of it, rather than ensuring the project's success. That's not to say that everyone involved has acted this way - the engineers deserve a medal for the job they did in restoring the aircraft.

There's still time for a miracle to happen but I don't think anyone is expecting a billionaire to suddenly open his cheque book. I imagine that the aircraft is more likely to re-appear at the beginning of this year's show season, and make a few appearances until whatever money is left, has gone. As I've said before, my real gripe with TVOC is that they've clearly not addressed the issue of what happens to the aircraft at that stage, and they seem to be only interested in pursuing their pleas for donations - rather like flogging the proverbial dead horse. The cynical part of my nature makes me inclined to think that this is because at least one person within TVOC is more concerned with milking the project's income for as long as he can, and when the project runs dry he won't be interested in it any longer. I'd like to think that my view is wrong but (as I've said before) I've not seen so much as a single word from him to convince me or anyone else, otherwise.

The thrilling new XH558 Press Office has appeared and, as expected, it hasn't produced so much as a line of useful information about the project so far. It doesn't fill me with confidence that TVOC have changed their approach. I've received so many communications from people who tell me of the ways in which they've offered help to TVOC and they've been met with either refusal or indifference (or no response at all). I've also been told of some of the ways in which money has simply been wasted, or transferred into people's pockets. It's not good, in fact it's a disgrace in my opinion. It's fine to congratulate TVOC on getting the aircraft back into the air but I think this fails to grasp the truth of the situation, that others could have done the job more successfully and much less expensively.

But referring back to my previous post, is there anything we can do, other than mourn the slow death of the project? I think there is some opportunity to do something, as I said before. Pprune represents a large body of people, many of whom are servicemen or former servicemen, who ought to have some "weight" when it comes to demanding answers. Clearly, the toothless aviation press is never going to look into the project and they'll continue to simply publish TVOC's press blurb and never stop to ask any difficult questions (they might not get their press passes to the next flight if they don't roll-over and say nice things). If there is any will amongst the people on Pprune to do anything other than moan, then why can't Pprune organise a project to approach HLF and seek some clear answers from them about where all their money went, and why, and whether they think it is acceptable to have allowed all this money to be spent on a project which now appears to have reached a dead end? TVOC can't simply sit-back and ignore HLF, even though they seem perfectly willing to ignore everybody else. Likewise, HLF seem to think that they can avoid discussing the project because their dealings with TVOC are confidential. Of course this is rubbish - HLF is spending our money, so we have a right to know where evey penny has gone, and why it seems like complete folly to allow it to be wasted, when shelling-out a little more would now produce some results. Make no mistake, HLF is the only hope of providing enough funds for 558 to fly, and yet nobody seems willing to address this fact, and everyone seems to think it's perfectly acceptable for HLF to pour money into the project and then refuse to give any more, just when the project has been completed and would produce a "return" on the hefty investmant. It's ridiculous.

Surely, somebody with a bit of "weight" should be demanding to know why HLF now seem happy to sit back and allow all the money they've spent (our money) to be wasted, just for the sake of spending a little bit (by HLF standards) more? If nobody has the enthusiasm or will to start asking serious questions, then what is the alternative? We simply sit and watch TVOC run the project into the ground?

bubblesuk

The shooting day has been arranged by Roger of the March Hare and is not organized or staffed by T.V.O.C./VTTS at all so there will be no expenses for the club etc to be deducted from the £544, the only way that the Brunty Bunch are involved is as competitors because i believe Doc Bob and co are attending.

DeKd

It's a Thursday.

Are you saying that anybody employed by the Charity will be taking a days leave and paying their own expenses to attend?

Similarly, are you saying that NOBODY will be charging the charity for their time and expenses in representing VTTS on the day?

That seems a bit "above and beyond" to me...

If, as I suspect, it's treated a normal working day, the point made remains valid - the charity needs ideas to raise real money. From the outside it would be very easy to interpret this as the management fiddling whilst Rome burns.

bubblesuk

Roger is a club member and organises these days off his own back, this is organised by him and him alone, Doc Bob, Taff, Andrew edmundson and Martin withers are going to be there as competitors and no doubt be stumping up for the ticket price. There will be no need for the club or trust to pay to be represented as it is a club day. everything but Rogers costs will be donated. Im terribly sorry that theres no hidden agenda or scandal or any form of ripp off embezzelment involved. Instead of guessing and speculating about the day may i suggest you contact Roger yourself?

Blacksheep

Should any disillusioned person wish to part with a bit of cash that will be well spent on preserving a worthy bit of our aviation history, there's a certain place just off the M25 bt London Colney that would make good use of it.


Aaah! DeHavilland as Straight & Level would say....

Tim McLelland

er... I hope you're not suggesting that the Mosquito and co. are somehow more worthy than a Vulcan are you?!

Cypherus

An avid supporter of the project from inception I have watched with growing concern as the 558 project has stumbled in a hapless fashion from crisis and disaster through triumph and once again to uncertainty all the while stoically associated with a body of silence from those responsible for the project other than meekly worded threats about imminent closure and final demise, and all of this has forced me too look hard at the projects original viability and organisation.

Reading through Tim’s latest post he makes good points that have niggled at people from the start.

As the originators of the projects major funding, the HLF, who time and again have had praise heaped upon them for the donation of the seed capital and provision of the credibility that such funding bestows seem to have avoided the real fall out of the projects financial problems by simply pointing too the confidentiality of their dealings with the TVOC senior board members regarding the original funding agreement, all well and good on the face of it, but looking harder at the HLF and it’s record of funding projects one finds that there is praise in abundance for those that have survived but little information on those that once seeded have gone on too close soon after the HLF capital was expended.

Which brings me too my major gripe with the HLF/TVOC involvement with the project, Too many times they provide large and small sums of money to start such projects with it would appear little or no regard for the longevity of same, seemingly to believe that once the money is handed over and accolades given their responsibility is over, in the case of 558 the money donated was always applauded as a one off donation and the project would be required too survive or fall on it’s own merits thereafter, the HLF would not give another penny too the funding, but do they not have a responsibility too the fund to ensure that the money they donate is used in the best interests of the project and as such failure should and would be seen clearly as lack of due care on their behalf to the aims of the fund, seems so as they quietly sit and watch numerous funded projects fail each year..

Yes the HLF provided enough money once the names were aboard to start the project, but in truth are the very organisation that was and is directly responsible for it’s demise by not correctly funding such a major project over the term of it’s tenure and for allowing the underperformance of the projects management to continue, but it would appear that their actual ability to control what goes on within the TVOC upper echelons is limited or non existent.

As for the TVOC fund raising efforts, farcical or what they should simply stop chasing the large sponsors, and concentrate on getting a regular flow of small donations from any and all sources, if the project had anything too offer the large corporations they would have invited themselves aboard long before now, obviously they do not see it as a well run beneficial source of advertising exposure so do not consider getting involved.

I for one will continue too support the project via the VTTS for the value I get from their efforts, but I have little expectations of seeing 558 over Eastbourne or any other venue for that matter again.

ibw123

TL this is a well thought out sit-rep of the present VTTS situation. I hardly ever agree with you but this time I think you have summed up the situation very well.

Have you mellowed ( towards the plight of XH558 ) or - have I become more critical? (of TVOC?).

Tim McLelland

Maybe it's a combination of both?! I haven't mellowed though - I've just resigned myself to the fact that the whole saga evidently isn't going anywhere and the best one can hope for is that 558 will make a few appearances this year before the inevitable occurs. I think the horrible truth of this matter is that despite the various actions which could be taken, they're not going to be taken, and the project is just going to plod-along in the same way that it always has done, until all the money is gone. Simple as that.

I don't see any sign of TVOC having any appetite to do things differently, nor do I see any signs of anyone with any influence wanting to get involved to try and salvage something from the mess. You can spend forever reading the endless comments on one enthusiast site or another but ultimately they amount to nothing. Like I said previously, the HLF is the only possible means of saving the project and nobody - absolutely nobody - has shown even a glimmer of interest in making an organised and serious effort to enter into any sort of dialogue with them. As I've said here and elsewhere repeatedly, anyone who still think sponsors are going to miraculously keep the aircraft flying or that donations will suffice, are simply deluding themselves. But the real crime is that HLF have effectively spent a huge amount of our money on a project which is ultimately going to end in failure. They have the ability to easily save the project and ensure that the money they put into it will result in a funded, flying exhibit. The amount of money required is peanuts as far as HLF is concerned, but it seems they're happy to simply write-off all the money that has been spent, rather than having the good sense to spend some more and thereby make the original expediture worthwhile. It's not as if there's even any question as to whether any further expenditure would yield results - we now know that the aircraft can fly.

But it seems that TVOC have no interest in pursuing this argument with HLF. Why? Well who knows - they steadfastly refuse to tell us anything. Maybe it's because they're already embarrassed by the way in which they appear to have failed to fulfil the terms of the first agreement with HLF? Or maybe they don't want HLF to ask too many questions as to precisely where all the money went? But whatever the reason, it seems that everybody is content to sit-back and ignore this obvious absurdity. It's quite amazing that so much talk and so much fuss has been made on so many forums, and yet nobody has addressed this matter, even though its the only practical way of saving the project. Seems that people are content to whine and moan about every aspect of the saga without dicussing the one point which could - just possibly - keep 558 flying.

I tried myself more than a year ago to get some useful dialogue with HLF and I had the support of a well-known former RAF officer who was willing to give his time and public support. But HLF will say very little without being forced to (because of this laughable confidentiality cop-out which is quite ludicrous, considering that it's public money that they're spending), and forcing HLF to address the matter would require some serious, organised effort - maybe even involving MP's if necessary. Unfortunately, what actually happens is that people would rather waste their time emailing silly petitions to 10 Downing Street - presumably because this provides a feeling of achievement without doing anything more than clicking on a website. Sadly, nobody seems to have the appetite to do anything more constructive, but then I think the vast majority of enthusiasts don't even know how to. So you have to conclude that, tragic though it may be, the project's going to go nowhere. It's a shame, but realistically, who can imagine the outcome is going to be any different?