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Messerschmitt Bf 109 G2 "Black 6"

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Messerschmitt Bf 109 G2 "Black 6"

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Old 18th Mar 2007, 15:34
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Messerschmitt Bf 109 G2 "Black 6"

One war plane I would like to see flying again is the "Messerschitt Bf109 G2 'Black 6' ".
I was lucky enough to see this aircraft fly powered with its "Daimler-Benz DB-605A" engine in 1995 or 1996.

Does anybody know if this aircraft is likely to fly again after its crash on the 12th October 1997. (Attached 2 Photographs on that day)

I think it's important to have a "Axis" aircraft with its german engine to fly with the Spitfire & Hurricane.





Regards
Mighty_Quinn
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Old 18th Mar 2007, 19:15
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Sadly I would think it unlikely Black 6 will fly again, it's now part of the RAF Museum Collection at Hendon
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Old 20th Mar 2007, 02:56
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Thumbs up Black six

Whatever the circumstances of the unfortunate landing - and see Luftwaffe statistics for shed-loads of those - the pilot involved refused to let them cut him out, as it would damage the airframe - despite being trapped with his nose in the dirt with a lot of high octane fuel around, above him.

I would think that worth rather more than a round of applause, ie a gong, no matter how the original landing went.

DZ
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Old 21st Mar 2007, 16:55
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"Whatever the circumstances of the unfortunate landing - and see Luftwaffe statistics for shed-loads of those - the pilot involved refused to let them cut him out, as it would damage the airframe - despite being trapped with his nose in the dirt with a lot of high octane fuel around, above him.

I would think that worth rather more than a round of applause, ie a gong, no matter how the original landing went..."




Shame was it appears it was possibly the pilots fault in the first place that black 6 became black 9!

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_501760.pdf
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Old 22nd Mar 2007, 21:15
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NutLoose. You're a diamond.......
Very intreasting read from your attached link regarding this unfortunate event.
Thank you for your response.

Regards
Mighty_Quinn
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 00:22
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Before Black Six was recovered from North Africa, is there any record of which Australian pilots may have flown it there? Such as Bobby Gibbes or Ted Sly?
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Old 20th Jan 2018, 15:34
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Originally Posted by FAR CU View Post
Before Black Six was recovered from North Africa, is there any record of which Australian pilots may have flown it there? Such as Bobby Gibbes or Ted Sly?
Yes, Bobby Gibbes did fly it on multiple occasions, the a/c was marked with his personal CV-V codes after capture and repair to airworthy by the 3 Sqdn fitters. He was the only 3 Sqn pilot to fly it, on 5 occasions before having to hand the aircraft over for evaluation as it was the first Gustav to be captured.

Gibbes and Ken McRae (who 'found' it in the desert) flew over to the UK in 1991 to be re-united with it, when Black 6 was officially 'rolled out' after its restoration back to flying condition.

Last edited by GeeRam; 20th Jan 2018 at 15:51.
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Old 20th Jan 2018, 20:16
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When Russ Snadden and the team started the restoration in 1972 the intention was for static display at Hendon. Russ then asked if they could restore 'Black 6' to flying condition and permission was granted for a 'limited flying life'. Prior to the first flight in 1991 the flying life was defined as being 3 years. Serviceability problems resulted in little flying being done in some seasons and so the '3 years' lasted until 1997. The accident sortie was, ironically, planned as the last public display sortie. After the accident the airframe was then rebuilt to an airworthy standard but the engine was never stripped and overhauled. The original propeller, which had been damaged but was flown on a concession for a couple of years, was refitted and the original fuel tank, which had developed a leak, was also refitted. Therefore, the aircraft as displayed in Cosford today is not totally airworthy but could be made so. Three of the 5 pilots that flew 'Black 6' are still flying warbirds. However, the aircraft essentially belongs to the RAF Museum collection and they do not fly their aircraft. It would be fantastic to get her airborne again, especially as a tribute to Russ and his magnificent team but, sadly, I doubt that will ever happen.

There are some on these forums who were involved in the project and may have more to add.

L

Last edited by LOMCEVAK; 21st Jan 2018 at 08:14. Reason: Grammar!
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Old 20th Jan 2018, 22:14
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Originally Posted by LOMCEVAK View Post
The airframe was rebuilt to an airworthy standard but the engine was never stripped and overhauled. The original propellor, which had been damaged but was flown on a concession for a couple of years, was refitted and the original fuel tank, which had developed a leak, was also refitted.
Err......nope.

The DB605 was fully stripped, overhauled and rebuilt by the team at RR Filton, and the prop was overhauled by Hoffman in Germany, and the original and perished fuel cell was replaced by a new build one, all before its first post restoration flight by Reg Hallam in 1991.
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Old 20th Jan 2018, 22:33
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Thank GeeRam . . .. . . Bobby had his homebuilt Cri-Cri at an airshow at RAAF Richmond around 1990. He had an engine failure taxying out to give a display. It was hot and windy. He was pushing his plane back to the parking area through a minor dust-storm. Later gave him a few shots I took on that occasion. He would not let me leave his home in Collaroy till the whisky bottle was drained and I had handed over the purchase price of his autobiography - "YOU LIVE BUT ONCE".
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 08:09
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GeeRam,

Originally Posted by LOMCEVAK
The airframe was rebuilt to an airworthy standard but the engine was never stripped and overhauled. The original propellor, which had been damaged but was flown on a concession for a couple of years, was refitted and the original fuel tank, which had developed a leak, was also refitted.
It may have been the way in which I worded this but the comments above relate to after the accident, not before first flight. The original propeller was slightly damaged on the first flight when it struck the ground during take-off due to an incorrectly filled trench that had been dug across the strip an Benson. The prop was blended and it was used for the 1991 season and possibly 1992 also. Hoffman then made a composite propeller that was aerodynamically the same but each blade was about 50 lbs lighter which helped because with the metal prop it was being flown at the forward c.g. limit. The original fuel tank started to leak and was replaced after a few seasons flying, not before first flight.

Please note that all of this is from memory and, for all of us, it was a long time ago!
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 09:21
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Originally Posted by LOMCEVAK View Post
However, the aircraft essentially belongs to the RAF Museum collection and they do not fly their aircraft. It would be fantastic to get her airborne again, especially as a tribute to Russ and his magnificent team but, sadly, I doubt that will ever happen.
Which opens a whole separate can of worms.

For a few years I was a university lecturer teaching aircraft design. I wasn't far away from Hendon, and went over there - and at one point had a meeting with the director - about using the museum as a resource for teaching.

Basically, no go. Despite the geography, despite the free admission, the whole place seemed to be about history and preserving non-airworthy exhibits in aspic. I just couldn't use it as a useful teaching resource.

I ended up spending quite a lot of the university's money taking my students to Duxford, about whom I can still make complaints, but they were an order of magnitude better in support to my attempts to teach the science and technology aspects of aviation, and of course I got to show my students airworthy aircraft (and to talk to people whose job it was to keep them airworthy) from which they benefited massively.

Of course you can't keep all museum exhibits airworthy, nor should you try. Resources are limited, and some aircraft really do need preserving in aspic -but in my opinion the RAF museum historically has not got this balance faintly correct.

G
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