Argonaut/North Star Memories and Observations
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I can recall three ex Trans Canada Argonauts at Coventry in the early 1960's belonging to Overseas. They were CF-TFK, CF-TFO and CF-TFT. I think they were scrapped out in the mid 60's. They were all parked on the grass with their tails towards the car park.
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Originally Posted by me
Yes, they were ex-TCA North Stars at Panshanger. I want to say three of them, but that's purely from (old and creaking) memory.
According to a tome in the PT (ahem) library the Argonauts in the UK were scrapped as follows:
CF-TFK,TFO,TFT Coventry
CF-TFN Panshanger
G-ALHI, LHH, LHT, VP-KOI Redhill
G-ALHI Stansted (fire school)
G-ALHJ Heathrow
G-ALHP, LHW, VR-AAT Burnaston
G-ALHM, LHS, LHW, LHY Castle Don.
And not forgetting the peripatetic and probably illegal CF-TFM which was stored for a while at Coventry then reregistered(sic) HP-925, BR-HBP, I-ACOA before smiting a mountain in Cameroun. (BR- was an unofficial mark for Burundi).
Buzz off with BAF!!
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When I worked at Southend Airport in the early 60s I can remember
the occasional Argonaut being parked on the north apron.
I vaguely recall they were in BMA colours by then, but a fading memory
could prove me wrong. Still a memorable sight and sound, especially when
compared with all the other DC4 conversions on the airport, the BUAF Carvairs.
the occasional Argonaut being parked on the north apron.
I vaguely recall they were in BMA colours by then, but a fading memory
could prove me wrong. Still a memorable sight and sound, especially when
compared with all the other DC4 conversions on the airport, the BUAF Carvairs.
Thread Starter
In a history of British Midland by B.G. Cramp, the short "time between overhaul" interval of the Merlins is mentioned.
Midland bought the aircraft "on the cheap" from Overseas Aviation, then found that they were costly to maintain.
Was the Merlin a high-performance military power plant, unsuited to commercial operations?
And was it particularly unreliable in the Argonaut?
r
Midland bought the aircraft "on the cheap" from Overseas Aviation, then found that they were costly to maintain.
Was the Merlin a high-performance military power plant, unsuited to commercial operations?
And was it particularly unreliable in the Argonaut?
r
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I recall that after the BEA Munich crash a series of tests to evaluate the effects of slush on aircraft take off performance were carried out at Boscomb Down by a Midland Canadair C4. Possibly early sixties.
If this is correct then the old C4 made a significant contribution to flight safety
If this is correct then the old C4 made a significant contribution to flight safety
Death Cruiser Flight Crew
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I think the reliability of the Merlin was perhaps no worse than many of the powerful piston engines of the time. The Stratocruiser was forever limping back in on three, and the Wright Turbo-Compounds on the DC-7C had a depressing propensity for catching fire.
Takeoff on an Argonaut was a somewhat fraught experience, especially out of somewhere hot and high. On the West African routes the passengers were told that the flights were scheduled to cross the Sahara at night, due to it being very turbulent during the day. I'm more inclined to believe now that it was due to performance at Tripoli and Kano!
Mind you, a heavily-laden DC-6 or C118 setting off across the Atlantic was a 'Curvature of the Earth' job too.
Takeoff on an Argonaut was a somewhat fraught experience, especially out of somewhere hot and high. On the West African routes the passengers were told that the flights were scheduled to cross the Sahara at night, due to it being very turbulent during the day. I'm more inclined to believe now that it was due to performance at Tripoli and Kano!
Mind you, a heavily-laden DC-6 or C118 setting off across the Atlantic was a 'Curvature of the Earth' job too.
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<< passengers were told that the flights were scheduled to cross the Sahara at night, due to it being very turbulent during the day. >>
More to do with nav requirements - the ability to hopefully see the stars to fix on - applied equally to the atlantic where both crossings were at night in the immediate post ww2 period - LORAN and consol made life easier in later years!!!!!!
arem - son of eng/nav/pilot in BOAC
More to do with nav requirements - the ability to hopefully see the stars to fix on - applied equally to the atlantic where both crossings were at night in the immediate post ww2 period - LORAN and consol made life easier in later years!!!!!!
arem - son of eng/nav/pilot in BOAC
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Speaking of long-range trans-oceanic flights, here is CPA's Canadair 4, Empress of Sydney, at Sydney, Australia on the return leg of her inaugural flight from Vancouver, Canada, on July 15, 1949.
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Speaking of long-range trans-oceanic flights, here is CPA's Canadair 4, Empress of Sydney, at Sydney, Australia on the return leg of her inaugural flight from Vancouver, Canada, on July 15, 1949
What would the routeing have been on that? I get tired just thinking about it!
FW
What would the routeing have been on that? I get tired just thinking about it!
FW
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Fokkerwokker
South Pacific routing was Vancouver-San Francisco-Honolulu-Fiji-Auckland-Sydney.
North Pacific routing was Vancouver-Anchorage-Shemya-Tokyo-Hong Kong.
The Chinese Communist Revolution of 1949 curtailed plans to stop in Shanghai.
North Pacific routing was Vancouver-Anchorage-Shemya-Tokyo-Hong Kong.
The Chinese Communist Revolution of 1949 curtailed plans to stop in Shanghai.
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larssnowpharter & evansb
Brings back memories to me as well, Khormaksar to Mombasa for two weeks leave to which one was entitled in ones second year in Aden.
Listening to people as they got off saying how noisy the aircraft was----and there was me thinking how quiet it was, but then I was used to sitting between four Griffons!!!
Listening to people as they got off saying how noisy the aircraft was----and there was me thinking how quiet it was, but then I was used to sitting between four Griffons!!!
Last edited by shack; 28th Feb 2007 at 12:37.
What avion had four Griffin motors you speak of? Photograph s.v.p?
Thread Starter
Re-reading more of Cramp's book on Midland, it seems that they narrowly missed buying DC6-Bs from the US, and only bought the Argonauts from a liquidation sale as they were very cheap.
However, the maintenance costs were much higher, overhauls more expensive, and, as Capt Cramp (who flew them) asserts, their range was inferior to the DC4, never mind the DC6!
Would anyone like to comment?
r
However, the maintenance costs were much higher, overhauls more expensive, and, as Capt Cramp (who flew them) asserts, their range was inferior to the DC4, never mind the DC6!
Would anyone like to comment?
r
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Midland 331
You are correct. The range was inferior to the DC-4. CPA relegated the C-4 to the domestic routes in the early 1950s. Meanwhile, Grant persued a contract from Douglas for DC-6Bs and parlayed a deal with de Havilland for the new Comet. Little known fact was that CPA operated DC-4s in place of Canadair C-4s while awaiting the DC-6Bs. CPA also leased some Convair 240s for service to the interior of B.C. His first jet, (and what would have been North America's first jet service) the Comet, crashed on delivery, so Grant bought Bristol Britannias for the long-haul routes the Comet was planned for. The Britannia's engines iced-up at temperatures just south of freezing, so by this time Grant was wondering if most British built
airliners were sub-standard. Against his better judgement, he bought Douglas DC-8s, with the excellent British Rolls Royce Conway engines, primarily because Trans-Canada Airlines had also ordered the DC-8 with the same engine. The DC-8-40s served him well initially, but the company dumped them for the P&W powered DC-8-50, and subsequently bought the stretch series -61, -62 and -63 Douglas DC-8s. He would have loved the Boeing 707-320B, had he lived to buy it. The share-holders of Canadian Pacific Corp. would have rejoiced.
airliners were sub-standard. Against his better judgement, he bought Douglas DC-8s, with the excellent British Rolls Royce Conway engines, primarily because Trans-Canada Airlines had also ordered the DC-8 with the same engine. The DC-8-40s served him well initially, but the company dumped them for the P&W powered DC-8-50, and subsequently bought the stretch series -61, -62 and -63 Douglas DC-8s. He would have loved the Boeing 707-320B, had he lived to buy it. The share-holders of Canadian Pacific Corp. would have rejoiced.
Last edited by evansb; 28th Feb 2007 at 11:08.
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enansb
I was stationed at Kai Tak in the early fifties and remember the CPA C4's on a weekly service from Vancouver via Tokyo. The BOAC Argonauts provided a regular "mail from home" service"
Regarding the C4 range. In 1953 I flew on a BOAC Argonaut (RAF charter) from London to Montreal via Iceland.
My records show that the flight time from Keflavik to Dorval 10hrs 50min. and a lot faster than a DC4. Quite a respectable performance I would say.
Regarding the C4 range. In 1953 I flew on a BOAC Argonaut (RAF charter) from London to Montreal via Iceland.
My records show that the flight time from Keflavik to Dorval 10hrs 50min. and a lot faster than a DC4. Quite a respectable performance I would say.
