Gatwick - Heathrow Islander and S61 Questions
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Gatwick - Heathrow Islander and S61 Questions
I would like the 'teams' assistance in dealing with some questions which could escalate from minor disagreement, to blood on the carpet, refusal to buy a round, or the worst possible outcome beer being spilt.
a) The Period when the Westward Islander Gatwick-Heathrow Airlink operated?
I believe summer 1969 - summer 1970.
Sub question as it operated at the Gatwick end from the GAT was this one of the reasons why it was deemed unsuccessful?
b) The period when the BAA/BAH (later BCH)/BCAL Helicopter Gatwick-Heathrow Airlink Operated?
I believe 1979 - 1985 - But I am really on shaky ground with this one.
Whilst the Rotorheads have been discussing this service, no period of operation has surfaced.
I have searched Google (but I bet the answers are there somewhere, but I cannot find them) and PPRune (all forums) with no result
Many thanks in advance to whose who's 'little grey cells' haven't been corroded by Harvey's Best Bitter and various Spirits
DIH
a) The Period when the Westward Islander Gatwick-Heathrow Airlink operated?
I believe summer 1969 - summer 1970.
Sub question as it operated at the Gatwick end from the GAT was this one of the reasons why it was deemed unsuccessful?
b) The period when the BAA/BAH (later BCH)/BCAL Helicopter Gatwick-Heathrow Airlink Operated?
I believe 1979 - 1985 - But I am really on shaky ground with this one.
Whilst the Rotorheads have been discussing this service, no period of operation has surfaced.
I have searched Google (but I bet the answers are there somewhere, but I cannot find them) and PPRune (all forums) with no result
Many thanks in advance to whose who's 'little grey cells' haven't been corroded by Harvey's Best Bitter and various Spirits
DIH
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The Link started on 9th June 1978 and the last flight was on 6th February 1986. I can't find the info about the Islander.
One of the Heathrow ATCOs got a ride in the Link one day and there were no fare-paying pax so he was invited up front and allowed to fly it. When he left the flight deck after landing the stewardess accusingly said: "It was you flying it, wasn't it?" How could she have known.....?
One of the Heathrow ATCOs got a ride in the Link one day and there were no fare-paying pax so he was invited up front and allowed to fly it. When he left the flight deck after landing the stewardess accusingly said: "It was you flying it, wasn't it?" How could she have known.....?
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How could she have known.....?
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Many thanks Heathrow Director for the Dates of the JV Airlink Service.
Still amazed that you had the information to hand so quickly.
Ah Tredders - Good response, but the Rotorheads might not be impressed.
The Islander service is beginning to intrigue me. I am sure it operated in 1969 and 1970 and obviously was not successful commercially as if it had of been someone would have taken up the licence even if Westward had dropped out.
At Gatwick (note got the spelling right this time), Stand 1 would have been better than the GAT (Perhaps the BAA were being unhelpful as it was an Islander). Which makes me wonder where it parked at LHR?
DIH
Still amazed that you had the information to hand so quickly.
Ah Tredders - Good response, but the Rotorheads might not be impressed.
The Islander service is beginning to intrigue me. I am sure it operated in 1969 and 1970 and obviously was not successful commercially as if it had of been someone would have taken up the licence even if Westward had dropped out.
At Gatwick (note got the spelling right this time), Stand 1 would have been better than the GAT (Perhaps the BAA were being unhelpful as it was an Islander). Which makes me wonder where it parked at LHR?
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Got a little bit more for you. The Westward Airways Islander link started on 25 June 1969 but the exact date it finished I know not. When it started it used to slot in visually behind ILS traffic. That was before the days of vortex wake and such a procedure now would cause intolerable delays. You may be interested to know that in 1969 there were just 168 Boeing 707 movements at Heathrow whilst there were 2570 by Britten Norman Islanders.
This and the previous information came from the book "Heathrow ATC, the first 50 years".
This and the previous information came from the book "Heathrow ATC, the first 50 years".
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Come to think of it, where did G-LINK park at LHR? Methinks it was somewhere close to Terminal 2, but the memories are so faded now...
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Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR
You may be interested to know that in 1969 there were just 168 Boeing 707 movements at Heathrow
BOAC, Pan Am, TWA, Qantas, Air-India, SAA, MEA all daily or multiple daily.
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Thanks Heathrow Director for both the Westward start date and the heads up on the Book "Heathrow ATC, the first 50 years".
The Statistics floored me for a couple of Minutes. I still cannot get my head around the incredibly low number of 707 Movements.
With great respect, are you sure that a Zero wasn’t dropped off at the end. 1680 is still extremely low, bearing in mind the number of 707 Operators using LHR at this time.
The Islander was a massive surprise, but once I got my head around the numbers I could see a possible explanation, but based on major assumptions and not being an LHR person, some vague memories:
a) The Islander Airlink was effectively operating for 6 Months in 1969.
This could provide conservatively a figure of 1200 MVTS possibly a lot higher (on some of my higher estimates over 50% of the total)
b) From the vague memories there were a couple of Airlines using Islanders on extremely thin routes from the regional airports not served by BAS/BEA.
c) I think Field Aviation was doing Islander Interior work and therefore Aircraft would pass through their facility on a non-scheduled but regular basis.
Whilst a big number those arrivals and departures all add up!
Meanwhile:
Tredders. I think your memory of the LHR Stand/Gate location is correct. Almost all pictures (including mine) show G-LINK at Gatwick, or doing airwork at Gatwick, or in-flight with no Ground detail. The only Picture I know is at LHR is of Pax Boarding the waiting Aircraft. This was taken from nearly above the Boarding Gate and doesn't provide any useful location cross-references.
My only vague memory indicates both Stand and Gate were totally dedicated to Airlink and were never used for any other purpose.
DIH
The Statistics floored me for a couple of Minutes. I still cannot get my head around the incredibly low number of 707 Movements.
With great respect, are you sure that a Zero wasn’t dropped off at the end. 1680 is still extremely low, bearing in mind the number of 707 Operators using LHR at this time.
The Islander was a massive surprise, but once I got my head around the numbers I could see a possible explanation, but based on major assumptions and not being an LHR person, some vague memories:
a) The Islander Airlink was effectively operating for 6 Months in 1969.
This could provide conservatively a figure of 1200 MVTS possibly a lot higher (on some of my higher estimates over 50% of the total)
b) From the vague memories there were a couple of Airlines using Islanders on extremely thin routes from the regional airports not served by BAS/BEA.
c) I think Field Aviation was doing Islander Interior work and therefore Aircraft would pass through their facility on a non-scheduled but regular basis.
Whilst a big number those arrivals and departures all add up!
Meanwhile:
Tredders. I think your memory of the LHR Stand/Gate location is correct. Almost all pictures (including mine) show G-LINK at Gatwick, or doing airwork at Gatwick, or in-flight with no Ground detail. The only Picture I know is at LHR is of Pax Boarding the waiting Aircraft. This was taken from nearly above the Boarding Gate and doesn't provide any useful location cross-references.
My only vague memory indicates both Stand and Gate were totally dedicated to Airlink and were never used for any other purpose.
DIH
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Sorreeeee.... Typo on my part. Should read 747, not 707.
The Link used to park in the Hotel cul-de-sac (stand H34?). God only knows what that's called nowadays (probably gobbled up with 380 stands). It would then whizz out to 28L for take-off... or we'd break the rules and just launch it straight out.
The Link used to park in the Hotel cul-de-sac (stand H34?). God only knows what that's called nowadays (probably gobbled up with 380 stands). It would then whizz out to 28L for take-off... or we'd break the rules and just launch it straight out.
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Ah 747 Mvts, all now clear! As for Typos, I am the guy who couldn't even spell Gatport Airwick, sorry Gatwick Airport!
As for direct launching the LGW ATC tended to do a similar trick, which is why I was surprised I have a photo G-LINK Ground Taxying (I must have taken it for it's rarity value :-)
DIH.
As for direct launching the LGW ATC tended to do a similar trick, which is why I was surprised I have a photo G-LINK Ground Taxying (I must have taken it for it's rarity value :-)
DIH.
HD :
As the first ever commercial 747 flight was Pan Am from JFK arriving Heathrow 23 January 1970 (it was the aircraft later lost in the Tenerife collision) I would be surprised if there were any Heathrow 747 movements in 1969 at all.
Regarding the Islander, I seem to recall an item some years ago saying as it was approaching Gatwick the main runway was blocked by a disabled jet and it was landed on the taxiway. I always thought this must be a tall story, surely that would not be licenced for a scheduled service operation, regardless of the aircraft's performance.
Tony Merton-Jones' "British Independent Airlines" gives lots of detail about the Westward Islander operation. The aircraft operated to/from Plymouth each day and the shuttle was a fill-in, 6 return trips a day, block time 15 minutes. Start 25 June 1969, last op 22 Aug 1970, but for the final month they had subcontracted it out to Southend Air Taxis with - wait for it - a Piper Cherokee. I think that merits a
!!! Wonder what the reaction would be if I tried to file a flight plan for myself with my Cherokee today for the same journey !
As the first ever commercial 747 flight was Pan Am from JFK arriving Heathrow 23 January 1970 (it was the aircraft later lost in the Tenerife collision) I would be surprised if there were any Heathrow 747 movements in 1969 at all.
Regarding the Islander, I seem to recall an item some years ago saying as it was approaching Gatwick the main runway was blocked by a disabled jet and it was landed on the taxiway. I always thought this must be a tall story, surely that would not be licenced for a scheduled service operation, regardless of the aircraft's performance.
Tony Merton-Jones' "British Independent Airlines" gives lots of detail about the Westward Islander operation. The aircraft operated to/from Plymouth each day and the shuttle was a fill-in, 6 return trips a day, block time 15 minutes. Start 25 June 1969, last op 22 Aug 1970, but for the final month they had subcontracted it out to Southend Air Taxis with - wait for it - a Piper Cherokee. I think that merits a
!!! Wonder what the reaction would be if I tried to file a flight plan for myself with my Cherokee today for the same journey !
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I feel an anorak moment coming on...
Originally Posted by Opssys
From the vague memories there were a couple of Airlines using Islanders on extremely thin routes from the regional airports not served by BAS/BEA.
The Autair Herald services to Dundee (Leuchars) - some direct, some via Blackpool and some via Carlisle
Ditto to Teesside - some direct, some via Hull (Brough)
Plus the Luxair F27 service to Luxembourg.
That's from the May ABC guide which didn't mention the Islanders
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<<As the first ever commercial 747 flight was Pan Am from JFK arriving Heathrow 23 January 1970 (it was the aircraft later lost in the Tenerife collision) I would be surprised if there were any Heathrow 747 movements in 1969 at all.>>
OK... well all I was doing was quoting from a book.
OK... well all I was doing was quoting from a book.
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I operated into Gatwick on 26th June 1969. I remember meeting the pilot of the Islander who had operated from Heathrow. I think that his name was Howard Fry. I remember that he also mentioned flying to Plymouth.
Airclues
Airclues
I had always believed that the Islander ceased operations because it was taking up valuable runway slots, plus it defeated the idea of providing a timetabled connex when it had to queue for ages to get onto the runway.
Used the airlink on a few occassions and always found it excellent, mind you one of the female cabin crew used to share the house I was living in at the time.
Used the airlink on a few occassions and always found it excellent, mind you one of the female cabin crew used to share the house I was living in at the time.
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Flew on the link once
I understood it was an experiment to link LHW-LGW, and when the M25 was completed, this was the end. The permission was based on a limited period.
Watched them do the hover checks at the beahive, at LGW, (actually not the beahive but the hangar next to the beahive.). Then hop over the road for the first flight of the day.
My parents lived on Epsom downs, I watched it overfly many times....
Another problem was the NIMBY noise. As it would try to stay VFR, sometimes the noise was almost a bad as normal LHR traffic. But then came Concorde, and on the downs, you could actually see and hear it roll from LHR......Now that was noise.......
Also from LGW on sereval ocassions gave a life to Islander crew back to Plymouth in our PA 24 250 that we based at LGW, we landed and took off several times from the high speed taxi way, but in them there days it was different. (and better). also several formation take offs, one breaks left, one right and the 1-11 followed the SID.....great for the occupancy stats.
I will dig into the old picture box and see if I still have the hop the road shots....
Bumz
Watched them do the hover checks at the beahive, at LGW, (actually not the beahive but the hangar next to the beahive.). Then hop over the road for the first flight of the day.
My parents lived on Epsom downs, I watched it overfly many times....
Another problem was the NIMBY noise. As it would try to stay VFR, sometimes the noise was almost a bad as normal LHR traffic. But then came Concorde, and on the downs, you could actually see and hear it roll from LHR......Now that was noise.......
Also from LGW on sereval ocassions gave a life to Islander crew back to Plymouth in our PA 24 250 that we based at LGW, we landed and took off several times from the high speed taxi way, but in them there days it was different. (and better). also several formation take offs, one breaks left, one right and the 1-11 followed the SID.....great for the occupancy stats.
I will dig into the old picture box and see if I still have the hop the road shots....
Bumz
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Thanks to HD, WHBM and others my original questions have been answered.
But the thread now has a 'life of its own' and this has actually made it much more interesting than my original questions warranted
So far I have only found one picture of the Westward Islander on 'Shuttle Duty':
I had completely forgotten that G-LINK would overnight at the BA (formerly BEA) Helicopter Base at Gatwick Airport South.
Bumz, I would be interested in seeing a photo of the 'hop over the road' .
DIH
But the thread now has a 'life of its own' and this has actually made it much more interesting than my original questions warranted
So far I have only found one picture of the Westward Islander on 'Shuttle Duty':
I had completely forgotten that G-LINK would overnight at the BA (formerly BEA) Helicopter Base at Gatwick Airport South.
Bumz, I would be interested in seeing a photo of the 'hop over the road' .
DIH
The M25 was completed here in October 1985, when the long section from Reigate to the A3 opened. The helicopter service thus ceased 3-4 months afterwards.
In the shot of the Islander (above) the reservation phone numbers at both ends have been painted on the TOP of the wings. I just wonder who ever they thought would see them (apart from the photographer here). I've seen info written on the belly of the aircraft, to be read from below, but never on top of it. Maybe they hoped to get the bottom level in the Ockham hold ?
In the shot of the Islander (above) the reservation phone numbers at both ends have been painted on the TOP of the wings. I just wonder who ever they thought would see them (apart from the photographer here). I've seen info written on the belly of the aircraft, to be read from below, but never on top of it. Maybe they hoped to get the bottom level in the Ockham hold ?
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A question raised by Tredders is now intriguing me (I must get a life).
Where did the Islander park at LHR?
As for the departure queues at LHR (very good point 'Surely Not') on a 15 Minute Block time even a relatvely short delay on one departure could ruin your entire schedule for the rest of the day and lead to extremely annoyed SLFs!
Whilst there are many extreme examples of 'departure congestion' one that sticks in my mind was the CRJ that pushed back on schedule at Newark on a 45 minute block flight and actually became airborne 150 Minutes later.
As for shuttles whilst the indications are that the Islander service was not overwhelmed by people eager to use it, in the US a Boston - ? - Boston Shuttle CRJ used to regularly depart early because it was full (the reason I remember was we had to produce a workaround so the system didn't give warning alerts on that rotation whilst maintaining alert checks on other MVTs)
I feel I have probably caused some serious thread drift here. Oh well!
Update
I suspect the reason for the Booking Telephone Numbers being on top of the wings was that Westward expected them to be seen by people walking along the Piers at Gatwick and I guess Heathrow (after all a lot of people at Gatwick and LHR would always look down on an Islander ).
Also whilst mentioned on the post that started this thread, there was a discussion on the JV Airlink in Rotorheads which is here:
Rotorheads Thread
Although some of the ground covered has been duplicated here, much hasn't. However the reason for posting the Link now is there is a picture of G-LINK on H34 at LHR with boarding in progress.
Whilst there are a lot of very good G-LINK pictures on the Web, the only decent one of mine is in the Brilliant pictures thread (Pretty Good rather than Brilliant actually)
.
DIH
Where did the Islander park at LHR?
As for the departure queues at LHR (very good point 'Surely Not') on a 15 Minute Block time even a relatvely short delay on one departure could ruin your entire schedule for the rest of the day and lead to extremely annoyed SLFs!
Whilst there are many extreme examples of 'departure congestion' one that sticks in my mind was the CRJ that pushed back on schedule at Newark on a 45 minute block flight and actually became airborne 150 Minutes later.
As for shuttles whilst the indications are that the Islander service was not overwhelmed by people eager to use it, in the US a Boston - ? - Boston Shuttle CRJ used to regularly depart early because it was full (the reason I remember was we had to produce a workaround so the system didn't give warning alerts on that rotation whilst maintaining alert checks on other MVTs)
I feel I have probably caused some serious thread drift here. Oh well!
Update
I suspect the reason for the Booking Telephone Numbers being on top of the wings was that Westward expected them to be seen by people walking along the Piers at Gatwick and I guess Heathrow (after all a lot of people at Gatwick and LHR would always look down on an Islander
).Also whilst mentioned on the post that started this thread, there was a discussion on the JV Airlink in Rotorheads which is here:
Rotorheads Thread
Although some of the ground covered has been duplicated here, much hasn't. However the reason for posting the Link now is there is a picture of G-LINK on H34 at LHR with boarding in progress.
Whilst there are a lot of very good G-LINK pictures on the Web, the only decent one of mine is in the Brilliant pictures thread (Pretty Good rather than Brilliant actually)
.
DIH
Last edited by Opssys; 2nd Jun 2006 at 13:43. Reason: Update