Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)
No. Nor did I ever infer that it was....
The hangar was certainly up to the standard of the RAF hangars in which 558 used to live in the Cold War - it's the ridiculously excessive Health and Safety
nonsense which made everything so costly.
The hangar was certainly up to the standard of the RAF hangars in which 558 used to live in the Cold War - it's the ridiculously excessive Health and Safety
nonsense which made everything so costly.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Its a shame we can't rake up enough loose change to keep aviation history flying in the UK. Are there any plans for the Southend Vulcan to be returned to flight?
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Originally Posted by Navaleye
Its a shame we can't rake up enough loose change to keep aviation history flying in the UK. Are there any plans for the Southend Vulcan to be returned to flight?
I'm afraid its XH558 or bust
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I believe that the people at Southend have already agreed to simply maintain XL426 in a taxy status, having abandoned any hopes of ever flying it again.
I think it fair to say that regardless of or various gripes, we'd all hope that 558 does fly again, but this doesn't mean that we aren't entitled to criticise some of the aspects of the project. While lots of people are evidently working very hard on restoring XH558, I still think it's remarkable that so little feedback comes from the administrators of the programme. I think an occasional press release and the odd few lines in aviation magazines really isn't much for such a major project, especially when it is now supposedly a "national" heritage programme supported by the Lottery.
Raising cash through dontaions is fine, but it just seems like a very amateurish way to try and support such a hugely expensive project. I know that TVOC claim that they've been unable to find a corporate sponsor but come on, you'd think that in ten years, someone could have been found? Likewise, appointing a PR company that was evidently no good is simply not a valid excuse for appointing a better one, is it?
This subject has popped-up on lots of forum sites, and yet I still haven't seen so much as a line of response from TVOC. Maybe they don't even bother to look at such sites, in which case I wonder if someone from Pprune could draw their attention to these postings? You never know, they might even manage to respond?!
I think it fair to say that regardless of or various gripes, we'd all hope that 558 does fly again, but this doesn't mean that we aren't entitled to criticise some of the aspects of the project. While lots of people are evidently working very hard on restoring XH558, I still think it's remarkable that so little feedback comes from the administrators of the programme. I think an occasional press release and the odd few lines in aviation magazines really isn't much for such a major project, especially when it is now supposedly a "national" heritage programme supported by the Lottery.
Raising cash through dontaions is fine, but it just seems like a very amateurish way to try and support such a hugely expensive project. I know that TVOC claim that they've been unable to find a corporate sponsor but come on, you'd think that in ten years, someone could have been found? Likewise, appointing a PR company that was evidently no good is simply not a valid excuse for appointing a better one, is it?
This subject has popped-up on lots of forum sites, and yet I still haven't seen so much as a line of response from TVOC. Maybe they don't even bother to look at such sites, in which case I wonder if someone from Pprune could draw their attention to these postings? You never know, they might even manage to respond?!
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Wulcan to the Sky Trust Speaks Out
Hi All,
I sent an e-mail to the trust today hoping to get an answer to a few of the burning questions raised on this and othe forums.
My E-mail to them
Good Afternoon Vulcan to the Sky Trust,
As I’m sure you’re aware, the recent press release by the Vulcan to the Sky Trust has raised more than a few questions. Most of these seem to be based on the UKAR and PPrune forums. I have added the links below.
http://www.ukar.co.uk/cgi-bin/ukarboard/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=1;t=14106
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=222368
One of the recurring statements is that no one from the Trust seems to be answering the questions put forward by so many of the supporters, enthusiasts and critics. This now seems to be putting people off donating more money to the fund as many seem to think that the Trusts silence means there is much more lurking in the background.
Many on the PPrune forum see the project turning into a “white elephant”. I fear that if the Trust does not answer the questions put to them by its many supporters and critics, its stands to loose so much more than it can afford to. I’m sure you’ll agree, at this stage the trust needs all the help it can get.
The response
Thank you for your email and the references.I have visited the sites.
I would ask that you perhaps reply on these sites on our behalf and suggest that those who wish to know visit the Vulcantothesky website.
I am obviously most concerned that there are those who feel negative but we do communicate as much as we can and the latest press release is on our site and we have been on ITV across all the regions telling everyone that escalating and unexpected costs from contractors who are treating this project on a purely commercial basis have caused us a problem.
It is impossible for me to cover every outlet and to answer every question and, therefore, if you felt able that would be great. Please be assured, and pass this on to everyone concerned, that Vulcan to the Sky Trust has done everthing possible to make this project happen.Five years of blood, sweat and tears and, in my case, free of charge!
If it has to stop it will not be through any lack of good management or idle hope, it will be entirely due to costs that cannot be covered by voluntary donation and believe me we have tried to get a corporate sponsor.This may still happen but there is natural caution from such people until she is tested and flies and we may not have the time to get there before the Trustees have to call a halt.
This will be a tragedy should it have to happen but for whatever reason, and maybe those just stated, the extra money is not available at this time.
We have set up an escrow account for donations since the time we felt we may need to be concerned so any funds donated now can be returned.
I agree though people will be reticent to give in the likelihood of failure.
We continue to endeavour to open doors and will keep everyone updated on the VulcantotheSky website.
Thank for your support
I sent an e-mail to the trust today hoping to get an answer to a few of the burning questions raised on this and othe forums.
My E-mail to them
Good Afternoon Vulcan to the Sky Trust,
As I’m sure you’re aware, the recent press release by the Vulcan to the Sky Trust has raised more than a few questions. Most of these seem to be based on the UKAR and PPrune forums. I have added the links below.
http://www.ukar.co.uk/cgi-bin/ukarboard/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=1;t=14106
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=222368
One of the recurring statements is that no one from the Trust seems to be answering the questions put forward by so many of the supporters, enthusiasts and critics. This now seems to be putting people off donating more money to the fund as many seem to think that the Trusts silence means there is much more lurking in the background.
Many on the PPrune forum see the project turning into a “white elephant”. I fear that if the Trust does not answer the questions put to them by its many supporters and critics, its stands to loose so much more than it can afford to. I’m sure you’ll agree, at this stage the trust needs all the help it can get.
The response
Thank you for your email and the references.I have visited the sites.
I would ask that you perhaps reply on these sites on our behalf and suggest that those who wish to know visit the Vulcantothesky website.
I am obviously most concerned that there are those who feel negative but we do communicate as much as we can and the latest press release is on our site and we have been on ITV across all the regions telling everyone that escalating and unexpected costs from contractors who are treating this project on a purely commercial basis have caused us a problem.
It is impossible for me to cover every outlet and to answer every question and, therefore, if you felt able that would be great. Please be assured, and pass this on to everyone concerned, that Vulcan to the Sky Trust has done everthing possible to make this project happen.Five years of blood, sweat and tears and, in my case, free of charge!
If it has to stop it will not be through any lack of good management or idle hope, it will be entirely due to costs that cannot be covered by voluntary donation and believe me we have tried to get a corporate sponsor.This may still happen but there is natural caution from such people until she is tested and flies and we may not have the time to get there before the Trustees have to call a halt.
This will be a tragedy should it have to happen but for whatever reason, and maybe those just stated, the extra money is not available at this time.
We have set up an escrow account for donations since the time we felt we may need to be concerned so any funds donated now can be returned.
I agree though people will be reticent to give in the likelihood of failure.
We continue to endeavour to open doors and will keep everyone updated on the VulcantotheSky website.
Thank for your support
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Hmm, lovely statement which says absolutely nothing. Incidentally, who is the statement from?
I've just been looking through the TVOC website again. I'd love to know why it requires in excess of ten "Trustees" to run this project, and although they all seem happy to describe their past achievements, there doesn't seem to be one word to describe precisely what their role is within TVOC. Even more interesting is that the engineers who actually do the work, don't receive the same amount of coverage.
In particular, I'm amazed that the mysterious Dr Pleming appears to be the "Boss" in this programme and yet there isn't even the slightest indication of what he does, and how much time he is obliged to devote to the project. Even more intersting is that there's not a single word about how much he (and others) are paid for their efforts. What exactly does he do? Where is he? Why does he never manage to say much?
Frankly, given that the project is all about (as the website claims) "our" aircraft, then I think we're entitled to rather more information as to how both the fund-raising cash and Lottery money is being spent. I'm not the first person to raise this point, and whilst we would all be content to see that funds are being spent on necessary work, on on the wages/expenses of the people who are actually doing the restoration, there's no excuse for not being completely open about this matter. If this project really is a national concern, then the website needs a verified Accounts section.
The latest press release is presumably designed to "scare" people into making yet more donations, on the assumption that if they don't, the aircraft will never fly. If the reason for this plea is due to miscalculations of cash flow (as TVOC claim) then it's time we were shown the accounts so we can see exactly what is going on. On the other hand, if it is just a cynical attempt to gather more cash, one hopes that their attempt doesn't backfire and prompt the more "defeatest" donors to ask for their money back.
I still hope the project succeeds, but the more I read and hear, the less confident I am about the way in which the project is being handled.
I've just been looking through the TVOC website again. I'd love to know why it requires in excess of ten "Trustees" to run this project, and although they all seem happy to describe their past achievements, there doesn't seem to be one word to describe precisely what their role is within TVOC. Even more interesting is that the engineers who actually do the work, don't receive the same amount of coverage.
In particular, I'm amazed that the mysterious Dr Pleming appears to be the "Boss" in this programme and yet there isn't even the slightest indication of what he does, and how much time he is obliged to devote to the project. Even more intersting is that there's not a single word about how much he (and others) are paid for their efforts. What exactly does he do? Where is he? Why does he never manage to say much?
Frankly, given that the project is all about (as the website claims) "our" aircraft, then I think we're entitled to rather more information as to how both the fund-raising cash and Lottery money is being spent. I'm not the first person to raise this point, and whilst we would all be content to see that funds are being spent on necessary work, on on the wages/expenses of the people who are actually doing the restoration, there's no excuse for not being completely open about this matter. If this project really is a national concern, then the website needs a verified Accounts section.
The latest press release is presumably designed to "scare" people into making yet more donations, on the assumption that if they don't, the aircraft will never fly. If the reason for this plea is due to miscalculations of cash flow (as TVOC claim) then it's time we were shown the accounts so we can see exactly what is going on. On the other hand, if it is just a cynical attempt to gather more cash, one hopes that their attempt doesn't backfire and prompt the more "defeatest" donors to ask for their money back.
I still hope the project succeeds, but the more I read and hear, the less confident I am about the way in which the project is being handled.
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Having spent many years at the "dirty" end of aircraft maintenance, the guys (and gals) doing the hands-on work very rarely get any form of thanks. That priviledge is reserved for the "management"!
I was hoping this would be different in this case but alas......
I was hoping this would be different in this case but alas......
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moan moan moan moan moan.....
Claws away ladies! Anyone on here joined the Vulcan to the Sky club I wonder and received their regular updates of info about the project? Crediting all those working their arses off and informing you more about what is being done there. That's the way to gather the info if you want it. Don't expect these very busy people to bring it to you and drop it in your lap.
Now, a more welcome topic would be how do we raise some substantial cash? I have been to my flying clubs and some very good suggestions are being put up and actioned. Alas, I am not sure it will be able to generate any quick fix cash for them but it'll be a start.
All we can do is spread the word and do our bit
The Falklands do is a UK based commemoration I've heard!
Now, a more welcome topic would be how do we raise some substantial cash? I have been to my flying clubs and some very good suggestions are being put up and actioned. Alas, I am not sure it will be able to generate any quick fix cash for them but it'll be a start.
All we can do is spread the word and do our bit
The Falklands do is a UK based commemoration I've heard!
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Originally Posted by sucksqueezeBANGstop
Don't expect these very busy people to bring it to you and drop it in your lap.
And who says "these people" are very busy? What, might I ask, does Dr Pleming and Felicity Irwin actually do all day? We're entitled to know, and it's certainly not up to us to be obliged to search for answers, or to join any supporter's club, in order to find out.
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Another typical reply from the TVOC bunch of faceless individuals who spout lots, but actually say nothing.
I, like many others, have supported this project for more years than I care to recall and I am now fed up of hearing the same old bleeting comments about why they need more money, because things were underestimated, over-charged, 'not foreseen' blah. I did very much want to see the old girl get back in the air, but now I firmly believe that the time has come to simply let her RIP in a museum somewhere. Am I the only one who is sick to death of hearing how it is always some one elses fault, and never TVOC??
Those responsible at TVOC have a lot to answer for, and I would welcome an open public debate where those of us who have paid good money to them can have the opportunity to ask them some serious and difficult questions, and maybe get some straight and honest answers.
It is my belief that a lot of people are making a pretty good living off the back of this project, not least of all the 10+ members of the trust! (Maybe one of them might like to disclose his/her 'earnings'? or maybe that info is readily available through the charity commision or something??
And why does it need 10+ of them as Tim says? what do they all do? What does any of them do?
Dr Pleming, if you are reading this, then please have the courage and commitment to answer some of the questions raised in this forum. Likewise, please tell me why you have not had the common decency to reply to any of my e mails or letters or to the correspondance from lots of my friends and colleagues about the project?? Being asked difficult questions is NOT a reason to deny a reply.
SSBS. Your comments are simply invalid. As Tim rightly points out, this project now attracts lottery funding as well as all the public money donated and I think they have a duty to inform us of the progress, after all, what are the 10+ doing????
And very busy people?? who exactly are you talking about?? the engineers or the 10+ 'nobodys'? You will be asking us soon to believe that they are so busy that they don't all have other jobs and occupations!
BEagle. Of course the hangar was up to the standard of the RAF hangars in which 558 lived, and yes, the ridiculously excessive Health and Safety nonsense has made everything costly, but that is NOT an excuse for TVOC to get it wrong in the first place. After all, if they didn't see this problem (or most of the others) then the word 'incompetance' springs to mind.
The most 'welcome topic' would be to hear that the project is finally being wound up once-and-for-all, and that the aircraft is being put back together, and those responsible for the 'farce' are being investigated.
The time has come to let her go. Let the old girl take pride of place in a museum and let's stop wasting money on a project that is way past its sell-by date.
Regards
TSM
I, like many others, have supported this project for more years than I care to recall and I am now fed up of hearing the same old bleeting comments about why they need more money, because things were underestimated, over-charged, 'not foreseen' blah. I did very much want to see the old girl get back in the air, but now I firmly believe that the time has come to simply let her RIP in a museum somewhere. Am I the only one who is sick to death of hearing how it is always some one elses fault, and never TVOC??
Those responsible at TVOC have a lot to answer for, and I would welcome an open public debate where those of us who have paid good money to them can have the opportunity to ask them some serious and difficult questions, and maybe get some straight and honest answers.
It is my belief that a lot of people are making a pretty good living off the back of this project, not least of all the 10+ members of the trust! (Maybe one of them might like to disclose his/her 'earnings'? or maybe that info is readily available through the charity commision or something??
And why does it need 10+ of them as Tim says? what do they all do? What does any of them do?
Dr Pleming, if you are reading this, then please have the courage and commitment to answer some of the questions raised in this forum. Likewise, please tell me why you have not had the common decency to reply to any of my e mails or letters or to the correspondance from lots of my friends and colleagues about the project?? Being asked difficult questions is NOT a reason to deny a reply.
SSBS. Your comments are simply invalid. As Tim rightly points out, this project now attracts lottery funding as well as all the public money donated and I think they have a duty to inform us of the progress, after all, what are the 10+ doing????
And very busy people?? who exactly are you talking about?? the engineers or the 10+ 'nobodys'? You will be asking us soon to believe that they are so busy that they don't all have other jobs and occupations!
BEagle. Of course the hangar was up to the standard of the RAF hangars in which 558 lived, and yes, the ridiculously excessive Health and Safety nonsense has made everything costly, but that is NOT an excuse for TVOC to get it wrong in the first place. After all, if they didn't see this problem (or most of the others) then the word 'incompetance' springs to mind.
The most 'welcome topic' would be to hear that the project is finally being wound up once-and-for-all, and that the aircraft is being put back together, and those responsible for the 'farce' are being investigated.
The time has come to let her go. Let the old girl take pride of place in a museum and let's stop wasting money on a project that is way past its sell-by date.
Regards
TSM
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Yes, I think the Monkey has pretty much said it all.
I am also disturbed at the number of excuses that eminate from the Vulcan crowd about how things had not been included in the calculations etc. Clearly, those responsible for the initial budgeting need to account for their short comings. I also agree that it seems to be everyone elses fault except theirs, and that tends to convice me that it is pretty much ALL their fault.
BEagle, you and I served together many years ago now, and I always admire your (usually!!) balanced argument, but do you not agree with TSM that someone should have forseen this nonesence called H&S?? after all, its been around for quite a while now, and I know from bitter experience that the power they weild is almost unbridled. I simply cannot understand why it has come as such a shock, (and at such a late stage) to the Vulcan people. After all, they are all civilians, and it is not like they are working to a (lesser?) military H & S standard?
I also read Plemings report and found it lacked any substance and commitment to the project, and I can understand why so many are disturbed at his failure to respond to their taxing questions. Maybe we should get DT to ask him directly and perhaps we may get a reply??
I still hold out a very thin sliver of hope for 558, but it is very thin and will snap soon I fear, unless things start to progress and those involved can be seen to be doing something worthwhile, and simply not putting the blame for everything onto others.
The Winco
I am also disturbed at the number of excuses that eminate from the Vulcan crowd about how things had not been included in the calculations etc. Clearly, those responsible for the initial budgeting need to account for their short comings. I also agree that it seems to be everyone elses fault except theirs, and that tends to convice me that it is pretty much ALL their fault.
BEagle, you and I served together many years ago now, and I always admire your (usually!!) balanced argument, but do you not agree with TSM that someone should have forseen this nonesence called H&S?? after all, its been around for quite a while now, and I know from bitter experience that the power they weild is almost unbridled. I simply cannot understand why it has come as such a shock, (and at such a late stage) to the Vulcan people. After all, they are all civilians, and it is not like they are working to a (lesser?) military H & S standard?
I also read Plemings report and found it lacked any substance and commitment to the project, and I can understand why so many are disturbed at his failure to respond to their taxing questions. Maybe we should get DT to ask him directly and perhaps we may get a reply??
I still hold out a very thin sliver of hope for 558, but it is very thin and will snap soon I fear, unless things start to progress and those involved can be seen to be doing something worthwhile, and simply not putting the blame for everything onto others.
The Winco
I quite like the "Blairforce One" idea.
The nice leather executive seats would go into the bomb bay, and from there it's only a flick of a switch to new government......
I'm sure Gordon Brown would fund that
J
The nice leather executive seats would go into the bomb bay, and from there it's only a flick of a switch to new government......
I'm sure Gordon Brown would fund that
J
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Well, I guess we simply await more news from TVOC. As some people know, I've started work on a new Vulcan book which will be more than double the size of the last one I wrote, and I will be including a very substatntial section on XH558 even without the assistance of TVOC. Certainly, if they still want to maintain their aurua of secrecy then they're welcome to do so, but I certainly don't propose to avoid telling 558's story as it is, "warts n all".
If Pleming and co. continue to say nothing, then I will of course seek further information from the Lottery people, as I'm sure they will be rather more forthcoming!
If Pleming and co. continue to say nothing, then I will of course seek further information from the Lottery people, as I'm sure they will be rather more forthcoming!
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Tim,
that sounds a jolly good idea (talking to the Lottery folk) What about getting your MP to ask a question in the house?? certainly in the RAF, that would generally get things moving at a quite alarming rate! and many (senior) Officers would have fears of their pensions going down the pan!
I think that as far as Pleming is concerned, you stand about as much chance of getting a responce as I have and many others! Clearly he only wants to talk to people when things are going well. Anything else and he clearly doesn't want to know.
Do you have a list of all the other 'personalities' involved with 558? It would be intersting to see who has their finger in the pie so-to-speak. Never know, it might just throw up a few surprises!
The Winco
that sounds a jolly good idea (talking to the Lottery folk) What about getting your MP to ask a question in the house?? certainly in the RAF, that would generally get things moving at a quite alarming rate! and many (senior) Officers would have fears of their pensions going down the pan!
I think that as far as Pleming is concerned, you stand about as much chance of getting a responce as I have and many others! Clearly he only wants to talk to people when things are going well. Anything else and he clearly doesn't want to know.
Do you have a list of all the other 'personalities' involved with 558? It would be intersting to see who has their finger in the pie so-to-speak. Never know, it might just throw up a few surprises!
The Winco
Tim, your hostile public stance towards Robert Pleming is hardly going to lead to greater access to the latest '558 story, I feel.
This year is the golden anniversary of the Vulcan's entry into service in 1956. A time when our aeronautical technology was world beating.
Nowadays the nation's youth are barely interested in aeroplanes, except when they take them on holiday. One aim of the '558 programme should be greater air-mindedness amongst the young; perhaps the gentle murmur of 4 x Olympi at full chat might make them wake up and look up?
Sponsorship is crucial. Personally I don't really care whether '558 is painted white, green and grey, sky blue pink or bright scarlet (wouldn't that look good at the front of the RAFAT?), as long as it flies again.
Vulcan = Woodford = Manchester. Isn't there some footie team 'oop therr' which rather likes the colour red? Perhaps they might be persuaded to spare a bob or two if the jet was painted appropriately?
This year is the golden anniversary of the Vulcan's entry into service in 1956. A time when our aeronautical technology was world beating.
Nowadays the nation's youth are barely interested in aeroplanes, except when they take them on holiday. One aim of the '558 programme should be greater air-mindedness amongst the young; perhaps the gentle murmur of 4 x Olympi at full chat might make them wake up and look up?
Sponsorship is crucial. Personally I don't really care whether '558 is painted white, green and grey, sky blue pink or bright scarlet (wouldn't that look good at the front of the RAFAT?), as long as it flies again.
Vulcan = Woodford = Manchester. Isn't there some footie team 'oop therr' which rather likes the colour red? Perhaps they might be persuaded to spare a bob or two if the jet was painted appropriately?
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Beagle
That certain red football team ooop thare is now owned by an American business
tycoon who cares even less for our history circa 1956 than today's Yoof. Manure Utd only accepts sponsorship deals, it doesn't make them!
The 558 program has suffered from that old problem of British management God bless em. See the NHS saga to be reminded that no matter how much money is thrown at a project, if the managers are cr*p then so is the result. I for one will not donate any more money to this particular project.
That certain red football team ooop thare is now owned by an American business
tycoon who cares even less for our history circa 1956 than today's Yoof. Manure Utd only accepts sponsorship deals, it doesn't make them!
The 558 program has suffered from that old problem of British management God bless em. See the NHS saga to be reminded that no matter how much money is thrown at a project, if the managers are cr*p then so is the result. I for one will not donate any more money to this particular project.
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More on this saga can now be found on the appropriate thread on the UKAR site. One of their members forwarded some of our gripes to TVOC, and Felicity Irwin has now sent them (us) a reply which is on the forum thread.
I've added my response to that, so I won't take-up space by repeating it here, suffice to say that most of the relevant points are covered there.
The saga contines...
Incidentally Beagle, I'm sorry if I sound a little hostile towards Dr Pleming, but I'm ultimately more concerned with the welfare of XH558. He can either answer our questions or decline as he sees fit, but either way, I certainly don't propose to ignore him. If he wants to be the "Boss" of this project then he has to be answerable for his actions, one way or another. I've heard too many unofficial "off the record" moans about him to think that the matter should simply be overlooked - it wouldn't be doing any of us any favours and it certainly wouldn't be helping 558 to fly again.
I've added my response to that, so I won't take-up space by repeating it here, suffice to say that most of the relevant points are covered there.
The saga contines...
Incidentally Beagle, I'm sorry if I sound a little hostile towards Dr Pleming, but I'm ultimately more concerned with the welfare of XH558. He can either answer our questions or decline as he sees fit, but either way, I certainly don't propose to ignore him. If he wants to be the "Boss" of this project then he has to be answerable for his actions, one way or another. I've heard too many unofficial "off the record" moans about him to think that the matter should simply be overlooked - it wouldn't be doing any of us any favours and it certainly wouldn't be helping 558 to fly again.