First Jets brainteaser
BEags, Flying Bedstead?.... otherwise,,,,,something tells me there may have been a modified Meteor or Seahawk which had vectoring nozzles ...?
You're not thinking of the Vulcan with the Pegasus rig slung beneath it are you, BEagle?? (He says vaguely recalling a picture of this and wondering whether he's made it all up).
Edited to add: not made up, but have doubts as to whether it flew.
So as a second guess, how about the Supermarine 517 (hinged rear fuselage and jet pipe)?
Edited to add: not made up, but have doubts as to whether it flew.
So as a second guess, how about the Supermarine 517 (hinged rear fuselage and jet pipe)?
Last edited by Archimedes; 2nd Feb 2004 at 08:24.
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Maybe out of contest (willfully intended) with the first post on this subject but here is the first north american jetliner.
Desingned, built and flown a good while before the 707.
http://www.avroland.ca/al-c102.shtml
W-FF
Trop haut, trop bas, trop tard!
Desingned, built and flown a good while before the 707.
http://www.avroland.ca/al-c102.shtml
W-FF
Trop haut, trop bas, trop tard!
spekesoftly has the answer! RA490, a Meteor F4, was indeed fitted with twin Nene engines with exhaust defectors. The jet efflux could either be directed rearwards or at a fixed downward angle. The nacelles were extended forward, ballast was fitted in the rear of the aeroplane and additional end plate vertical fins added to the tailplane. It could actually be flown with deflected thrust operating at speeds down to 70 KIAS. Though what would have happened if an engine had failed at such a low speed on the approach, I'd hate to imagine as I don't think that it had a bang seat! Certainly not a zero-zero seat.
When did all this happen? Exactly 50 years ago...
I used to explore the old tunnels over which the ac would be positioned for ground tests at Merryfield when I was a youngster. Probably vanished for ever now..
Was there a Vulcan with a Pegasus underneath? I know there was the well-known underslung Olympus research ac for the TSR2 programme, but a Pegasus....??
OK - I'll give you the Supermarine 517. But I think that the rear fuselage jet pipe 'vectoring' was only a corollary of the tailplane incidence setting, rather than a deliberate research device?
When did all this happen? Exactly 50 years ago...
I used to explore the old tunnels over which the ac would be positioned for ground tests at Merryfield when I was a youngster. Probably vanished for ever now..
Was there a Vulcan with a Pegasus underneath? I know there was the well-known underslung Olympus research ac for the TSR2 programme, but a Pegasus....??
OK - I'll give you the Supermarine 517. But I think that the rear fuselage jet pipe 'vectoring' was only a corollary of the tailplane incidence setting, rather than a deliberate research device?
Last edited by BEagle; 2nd Feb 2004 at 13:11.
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Aerohack, unless I've missed it, don't think anyone answered your "much nearer to home" - like Sycamore, I'm also thinking Aero Commander, but modified in France with a pair of engines (Turbomecas?) suspended under the wings. Can't remember what they did with the gear though... Can't think of any others...
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Thinking of swapping props for jets, which two commonplace business turboprops have also flown — with minimal modification — as jets?
Turbo Commander = Jet Commander (didn't that become the Westwind?)
Embraer EMB120 = Embraer 145
I thought the Beech 400 was a development of the Mitsubishi Diamond, not the King Air 200?
Turbo Commander = Jet Commander (didn't that become the Westwind?)
Embraer EMB120 = Embraer 145
I thought the Beech 400 was a development of the Mitsubishi Diamond, not the King Air 200?
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Aero Commander built the 1121 Jet Commander (Ted Smith mid-winged design) which was a purpose built jet, later sold to IAI and became the Westwind. So far as I know it's a distinct design though perhaps there is commonality with the earlier piston/turbine Commanders...
The French re-engined Commander 680 (I think I saw one a Gatwick once) was a testbed, and there may have been two...
Beech did purchase the Mitsubishi Diamond programme and built it as the Beechjet 400 (or Beech 400 Beechjet?), but this was distinct to the re-engined King Air 200 which came much earlier.
Treadders
The French re-engined Commander 680 (I think I saw one a Gatwick once) was a testbed, and there may have been two...
Beech did purchase the Mitsubishi Diamond programme and built it as the Beechjet 400 (or Beech 400 Beechjet?), but this was distinct to the re-engined King Air 200 which came much earlier.
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Woomera/Treadders: No, not the Jet Commander, which was an entirely new design. But yes, Aero Commander it was: two Turbo Commanders, a 680V and 680W IIRC, modified with a pair of underslung Turbomeca Astafans. One at least, and maybe both, were modded by Miles Aircraft at Ford before serving Turbomeca as tesbeds and later runabouts.
Beech's PD290/'Fanjet 400' was unrelated to the Diamond/Beechjet/Hawker 400XP. It was a Super King Air 200 (actually the very first 200) with a pair of JT-15D-4s mounted in overwing nacelles. It flew less than 100 hours in 1975-1977 before Beech abandoned the idea.
Beech's PD290/'Fanjet 400' was unrelated to the Diamond/Beechjet/Hawker 400XP. It was a Super King Air 200 (actually the very first 200) with a pair of JT-15D-4s mounted in overwing nacelles. It flew less than 100 hours in 1975-1977 before Beech abandoned the idea.
Last edited by Aerohack; 2nd Feb 2004 at 16:22.
Everyone knows that the Percival Provost evolved into the Jet Provost, but can you name another Brit civil aeroplane which started its life under piston engine power and later became a jet?
While your mulling over that, name 3 Brit piston airliners with jet-engined versions or developments? Pure-jet, not turbo-prop!
While your mulling over that, name 3 Brit piston airliners with jet-engined versions or developments? Pure-jet, not turbo-prop!
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BEagle, you must be referring to the Mile Sparrowhawk G-ADNL which became the Miles Sparrowjet and was eventually lost in a fire at ... memory fade... but there are some remnants which will re-emerge with Fred Dunkerly's son Alan?
Avro Ashton, which I imagine was developed from the Tudor...?
Avro Ashton, which I imagine was developed from the Tudor...?
BEags--- Nene-Viking.
And while we`re busy, what British design started with Turboprops, but went back to big piston power for a customer?
And while we`re busy, what British design started with Turboprops, but went back to big piston power for a customer?
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__________________________________________________
spekesoftly has the answer! RA490, a Meteor F4, was indeed fitted with twin Nene engines with exhaust defectors. The jet efflux could either be directed rearwards or at a fixed downward angle. The nacelles were extended forward, ballast was fitted in the rear of the aeroplane and additional end plate vertical fins added to the tailplane. It could actually be flown with deflected thrust operating at speeds down to 70 KIAS. Though what would have happened if an engine had failed at such a low speed on the approach, I'd hate to imagine as I don't think that it had a bang seat! Certainly not a zero-zero seat.
When did all this happen? Exactly 50 years ago...
_________________________________________________
Sorry BEagle your date is a little out. I was a QFI at Merryfield 50 years ago and the only Meteors were the few Mk 7s we had left. It must have been either before mid 1952 or after 1954 when the AFS closed and we were all posted away.
(Once a trapper always a perdantic git!!!)
spekesoftly has the answer! RA490, a Meteor F4, was indeed fitted with twin Nene engines with exhaust defectors. The jet efflux could either be directed rearwards or at a fixed downward angle. The nacelles were extended forward, ballast was fitted in the rear of the aeroplane and additional end plate vertical fins added to the tailplane. It could actually be flown with deflected thrust operating at speeds down to 70 KIAS. Though what would have happened if an engine had failed at such a low speed on the approach, I'd hate to imagine as I don't think that it had a bang seat! Certainly not a zero-zero seat.
When did all this happen? Exactly 50 years ago...
_________________________________________________
Sorry BEagle your date is a little out. I was a QFI at Merryfield 50 years ago and the only Meteors were the few Mk 7s we had left. It must have been either before mid 1952 or after 1954 when the AFS closed and we were all posted away.
(Once a trapper always a perdantic git!!!)
Shack,
Re: RA490, the only piccies I've seen certainly look like Merryfield and those tunnels (north side of RW27, just about abeam the GCA site on the area just north of the Westlands hangar) were certainly there! The ac was converted in 1952 and went to Farnborough in August 1954. It wasn't operated by the RAF, but by Westlands. But as you were there at the time and reckon you never saw it, perhaps the tunnels were never used? My late father knew about the project, so perhaps it only made a fleeting visit to Merryfield?
treadigraph,
Yes, 10 out of 10. Sadly the only Sparrowjet was destroyed in a hangar fire at RAF Upavon in July 1964.
Avro Ashton, yes again (1948). Based upon the still borne Tudor Mk 9.
sycamore,
Yes, Nene Viking (1948). The ac which started with turboprops but was fitted with big pistons for a large customer was the Argus - a Canadian derivation of the Bristol Brittania. It had 4 Wright R-3350s instead of 4 BS Proteuses (Protei?)
..and the 3rd one, chaps?
JDK,
Spain - Hispano HA200 Saetta designed by Willi Messerscmidt?
Italy - Fiat G80
India- Was there an indigenous design before the Ajeet?
Pakistan - Supermarine Attacker (they must have had good salesmen!)
Belgium- Nil points, je regret!
Re: RA490, the only piccies I've seen certainly look like Merryfield and those tunnels (north side of RW27, just about abeam the GCA site on the area just north of the Westlands hangar) were certainly there! The ac was converted in 1952 and went to Farnborough in August 1954. It wasn't operated by the RAF, but by Westlands. But as you were there at the time and reckon you never saw it, perhaps the tunnels were never used? My late father knew about the project, so perhaps it only made a fleeting visit to Merryfield?
treadigraph,
Yes, 10 out of 10. Sadly the only Sparrowjet was destroyed in a hangar fire at RAF Upavon in July 1964.
Avro Ashton, yes again (1948). Based upon the still borne Tudor Mk 9.
sycamore,
Yes, Nene Viking (1948). The ac which started with turboprops but was fitted with big pistons for a large customer was the Argus - a Canadian derivation of the Bristol Brittania. It had 4 Wright R-3350s instead of 4 BS Proteuses (Protei?)
..and the 3rd one, chaps?
JDK,
Spain - Hispano HA200 Saetta designed by Willi Messerscmidt?
Italy - Fiat G80
India- Was there an indigenous design before the Ajeet?
Pakistan - Supermarine Attacker (they must have had good salesmen!)
Belgium- Nil points, je regret!
Last edited by BEagle; 2nd Feb 2004 at 18:59.
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Belgium - how about the Promavia Jet Squalus (but designed by Italian Maestro, Stelio Frati)
I'm racking my brains here (they have to be stored somehow) but I can't think of that third piston to jet UK airliner...
I'm racking my brains here (they have to be stored somehow) but I can't think of that third piston to jet UK airliner...
India---17 June 1961 Hindustan HF-24 Marut Mk 1
Egypt-- ?
Egypt-- ?
BEags, Avro Lancastrian, for R-R, De-H,Bristol, and Armlong-Woolworth, as engine test-beds.
Willi Messerschmitt, and Kurt Tank. Designers
B-S Orpheus 703 powerplant
Willi Messerschmitt, and Kurt Tank. Designers
B-S Orpheus 703 powerplant