Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ricardian, fascinating. In my time at ASI we caused a C130 aeromed to go to Rio rather than UK, 5 hours rather than 20.
The plan was to drop off the patiently. The crew plan was to night stop. Next day the Brazilians would not allow them toitoi depart without the patient. HMG would not permit the patient to embark until the Polish Government paid the bill for the airfare which they refused to do.
I think they eventually paid and the patient was flown back to his ship.
The plan was to drop off the patiently. The crew plan was to night stop. Next day the Brazilians would not allow them toitoi depart without the patient. HMG would not permit the patient to embark until the Polish Government paid the bill for the airfare which they refused to do.
I think they eventually paid and the patient was flown back to his ship.
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The answer to my question may be hidden amongst the many posts in here so apologies if this has already been discussed .... but when the Vulcan was being flown on training runs and exercises what "bomb loads" were carried?
I know there was a 28lb bomb, a 1000lb and some form of inert bomb (terminology?) to enable "all up weight" to be achieved, but was there a rule of thumb about which bombs were carried on training runs and exercises (other than live bombing).
Was there always some form of bomb on board or were training runs and exercises done predominantly without a bomb load? What was the bomb load situation on Rangers?
On live bombing, how many 1000lb bombs were carried and were there other weights in existence?
Sorry for all the questions, but I am just working my way through the 1962 - 1965 ORB for No. 35 Squadron and trying to understand how the aircraft was armed for the various training runs and exercises.
One other question on the same vein, are the training run routes documented anywhere or are they subject to Official Secrets Act
Any help would be much appreciated
Regards
Pete
I know there was a 28lb bomb, a 1000lb and some form of inert bomb (terminology?) to enable "all up weight" to be achieved, but was there a rule of thumb about which bombs were carried on training runs and exercises (other than live bombing).
Was there always some form of bomb on board or were training runs and exercises done predominantly without a bomb load? What was the bomb load situation on Rangers?
On live bombing, how many 1000lb bombs were carried and were there other weights in existence?
Sorry for all the questions, but I am just working my way through the 1962 - 1965 ORB for No. 35 Squadron and trying to understand how the aircraft was armed for the various training runs and exercises.
One other question on the same vein, are the training run routes documented anywhere or are they subject to Official Secrets Act
Any help would be much appreciated
Regards
Pete
Thread Starter
On 35 in the late 1970s, a 'weapon response simulator' and a 28 lb bomb was about the maximum ever carried in the UK.
One squadron conversion trip was supposed to be with 4 x 28 lb on a UK range; I never had that trip because I'd dropped bombs at TWU on the Hunter and on the Bucc OCU.
A 'shape' (simulated WE177B) might be carried occasionally to Strike Force Dispersal, but never routinely. A pain it was too, as the unlucky crew had to 'accept' the thing and adopt the full 2-man principle throughout and were usually the last to be sprung at Endex, due to having to return the thing to the special weapons custodians back at Scampton.
We didn't have anything to do with 1000lb HE from 1977-1980. Primary role was nuclear strike, secondary role was boat-spotting (MRR).
Training routes were hardly secret - usually just a bimble around the UK on a hi-lo-hi profile, with a little fighter affiliation after the low level element. The V-force was mostly restricted to the 'main route' around the UK to avoid conflict with other low level area users, until the low flying system changed at the end of the 1970s. For exercises from the UK, we might fly down to the south of France or up to Norway / Denmark. On a Goose or Offutt Ranger, we just flew the usual STCAN or OB (later 'IR') routes in Canada / USA.
All simulated weapon drops were scored by either RBSU or release point photographs analysed after flight by the Wing Weapons staff.
One squadron conversion trip was supposed to be with 4 x 28 lb on a UK range; I never had that trip because I'd dropped bombs at TWU on the Hunter and on the Bucc OCU.
A 'shape' (simulated WE177B) might be carried occasionally to Strike Force Dispersal, but never routinely. A pain it was too, as the unlucky crew had to 'accept' the thing and adopt the full 2-man principle throughout and were usually the last to be sprung at Endex, due to having to return the thing to the special weapons custodians back at Scampton.
We didn't have anything to do with 1000lb HE from 1977-1980. Primary role was nuclear strike, secondary role was boat-spotting (MRR).
Training routes were hardly secret - usually just a bimble around the UK on a hi-lo-hi profile, with a little fighter affiliation after the low level element. The V-force was mostly restricted to the 'main route' around the UK to avoid conflict with other low level area users, until the low flying system changed at the end of the 1970s. For exercises from the UK, we might fly down to the south of France or up to Norway / Denmark. On a Goose or Offutt Ranger, we just flew the usual STCAN or OB (later 'IR') routes in Canada / USA.
All simulated weapon drops were scored by either RBSU or release point photographs analysed after flight by the Wing Weapons staff.
Last edited by BEagle; 13th Aug 2017 at 13:21. Reason: Wrong bomb - thanks LOMCEVAK!
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Thank you for the feedback; it is always much appreciated.
I will have a dig around to see if I can find any photographs of the various bombs used and photographs of them loaded in the bomb bay.
I am still intrigued about the 28lb bomb (eg in what way did it mimic its larger counterparts) but I know that it was used during the inter-war period as well so it must have been highly successful.
I haven't really started any detailed research on the nuclear weapons (dummy / live etc) carried by No. 35 Squadron, but hopefully I will get round to this subject later this week.
My project covers No. 35 Squadron's time at Coningsby, Cottesmore, Akrotiri and Scampton so I don't know whether bomb loadings / types changed during this period, but I am sure my enquiring mind will find it.
Thanks again for feedback to date
Regards
Pete
I will have a dig around to see if I can find any photographs of the various bombs used and photographs of them loaded in the bomb bay.
I am still intrigued about the 28lb bomb (eg in what way did it mimic its larger counterparts) but I know that it was used during the inter-war period as well so it must have been highly successful.
I haven't really started any detailed research on the nuclear weapons (dummy / live etc) carried by No. 35 Squadron, but hopefully I will get round to this subject later this week.
My project covers No. 35 Squadron's time at Coningsby, Cottesmore, Akrotiri and Scampton so I don't know whether bomb loadings / types changed during this period, but I am sure my enquiring mind will find it.
Thanks again for feedback to date
Regards
Pete
Petet,
I have no knowledge regarding Vulcan ops but the 28lb bomb was used as a practise bomb on many aircraft types (I dropped them from Hunter and Buccaneer). It aimed to simulate the ballistic characteristics of a 1000 lb bomb fitted with a 114 tail (free fall delivery/low drag). There were variants that produced 'smoke and flash' to aid spotting on ranges and there were inert variants that were dropped on some ranges if a potential fire or EOD hazard existed.
I have no knowledge regarding Vulcan ops but the 28lb bomb was used as a practise bomb on many aircraft types (I dropped them from Hunter and Buccaneer). It aimed to simulate the ballistic characteristics of a 1000 lb bomb fitted with a 114 tail (free fall delivery/low drag). There were variants that produced 'smoke and flash' to aid spotting on ranges and there were inert variants that were dropped on some ranges if a potential fire or EOD hazard existed.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Before the 28lb the load was either 25lb for low level and 100lb for high.
Loads were either 8 of each or 16 of one. For T4 bombsight calibration it was 16x100.
At the time we never carried 21x1000 just for weight. There was a requirement for 2x1000 every 6 months but rarely achieved.
The only heavy weight load was the YS2 at 7000lb.
In Cyprus, to clear out timex stock we used to drop 7 or 14 1000 HE usually from a 2J popup.
Loads were either 8 of each or 16 of one. For T4 bombsight calibration it was 16x100.
At the time we never carried 21x1000 just for weight. There was a requirement for 2x1000 every 6 months but rarely achieved.
The only heavy weight load was the YS2 at 7000lb.
In Cyprus, to clear out timex stock we used to drop 7 or 14 1000 HE usually from a 2J popup.
Thread Starter
Thanks, LOMCEVAK, I did indeed mean the all-electric bucket of sun WE177B!
I don't recall have ever dropped anything from a Vulcan during my time - apart from almost dropping a boom on Bawtry having cocked up a max rate descent!
I don't recall have ever dropped anything from a Vulcan during my time - apart from almost dropping a boom on Bawtry having cocked up a max rate descent!
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Before the 28lb the load was either 25lb for low level and 100lb for high.
Loads were either 8 of each or 16 of one. For T4 bombsight calibration it was 16x100.
At the time we never carried 21x1000 just for weight. There was a requirement for 2x1000 every 6 months but rarely achieved.
The only heavy weight load was the YS2 at 7000lb.
In Cyprus, to clear out timex stock we used to drop 7 or 14 1000 HE usually from a 2J popup.
Loads were either 8 of each or 16 of one. For T4 bombsight calibration it was 16x100.
At the time we never carried 21x1000 just for weight. There was a requirement for 2x1000 every 6 months but rarely achieved.
The only heavy weight load was the YS2 at 7000lb.
In Cyprus, to clear out timex stock we used to drop 7 or 14 1000 HE usually from a 2J popup.
in '72.
If memory serves, and it was a long time ago, they were delay fuzed, but the resultant ripple thumps still stick in the memory.
PM
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
KB, Baz Gowling was the skipper. The delay was in the order of milliseconds.
On heavy weights, the heaviest load for FF was double drum fit plus 7x1000. Now that would have been a better load out for FI except the probability of a hit on the runway would have been vanishingly small.
A surprise low level attack would have worked except retards on a runway would have been ineffective.
On heavy weights, the heaviest load for FF was double drum fit plus 7x1000. Now that would have been a better load out for FI except the probability of a hit on the runway would have been vanishingly small.
A surprise low level attack would have worked except retards on a runway would have been ineffective.
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Thanks again for the feedback.
Having done further research, I note that No. 35 Squadron "Kinsman" exercises were flown to Yeovilton, Pershore, Ballykelly and Llanbedr. Is anyone able to confirm whether these were the only dispersal airfields utilised by the squadron (1962 - 1965)?
To tie this in with previous posts regarding the bomb load, what loads would have been used for Mick, Kinsman and Mickey Finn exercises?
Regards
Pete
Having done further research, I note that No. 35 Squadron "Kinsman" exercises were flown to Yeovilton, Pershore, Ballykelly and Llanbedr. Is anyone able to confirm whether these were the only dispersal airfields utilised by the squadron (1962 - 1965)?
To tie this in with previous posts regarding the bomb load, what loads would have been used for Mick, Kinsman and Mickey Finn exercises?
Regards
Pete
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Crew Classifications
I am struggling to find an answer to this on other forums, so wondered if you could help me out with this one too:
Can anyone advise on when Bomber Command / Strike Command crew classifications changed to Non-Operational, Operational, Combat, Senior, Command?
I have a note which says 1966 but I don't know if that is correct. Also, was there a particular reason for the change from Non-Combat, Combat, Combat Star, Select, Select Star?
Any help would be most appreciated
Regards
Pete
Can anyone advise on when Bomber Command / Strike Command crew classifications changed to Non-Operational, Operational, Combat, Senior, Command?
I have a note which says 1966 but I don't know if that is correct. Also, was there a particular reason for the change from Non-Combat, Combat, Combat Star, Select, Select Star?
Any help would be most appreciated
Regards
Pete
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If you ever want to see the Air Force, that was when UK had an Air Force, do a proper display then see them at an RAF base rather than at a 'health and Safety' civvy airport!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Can anyone advise on when Bomber Command / Strike Command crew classifications changed to Non-Operational, Operational, Combat, Senior, Command?
I have a note which says 1966 but I don't know if that is correct. Also, was there a particular reason for the change from Non-Combat, Combat, Combat Star, Select, Select Star?
I have a note which says 1966 but I don't know if that is correct. Also, was there a particular reason for the change from Non-Combat, Combat, Combat Star, Select, Select Star?
Virtually everyone could achieve Combat in 6 months, then CS, then Senior after 18 months and Select Star after 2 years and potentially the final period in that tour. The new scheme made it far harder to achieve Command status and involved examination by the Group Standards Unit. The main criteria for both was bombing accuracy with achievement of the numbers stats by the rest of the crew.
When? I would need to check my log book. I know we made CS in Jul 65, Select in Jan 66, and Select Star in Jul 66. I was certainly Senior in Jan 67.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Thanks again for the feedback.
Having done further research, I note that No. 35 Squadron "Kinsman" exercises were flown to Yeovilton, Pershore, Ballykelly and Llanbedr. Is anyone able to confirm whether these were the only dispersal airfields utilised by the squadron (1962 - 1965)?
Having done further research, I note that No. 35 Squadron "Kinsman" exercises were flown to Yeovilton, Pershore, Ballykelly and Llanbedr. Is anyone able to confirm whether these were the only dispersal airfields utilised by the squadron (1962 - 1965)?
To tie this in with previous posts regarding the bomb load, what loads would have been used for Mick, Kinsman and Mickey Finn exercises?
For Mickey Finn it would have been training rounds of YS2 though I don't think there were enough to go around. I seem to think live YS2 were loaded when they ran our of drill rounds. Once loaded they would be downloaded and either returned to store or wheeled to the next aircraft for loading practice. From 1966 there were sufficient WE177 training round for one each.
For Kinsman you may or may not have had a shape loaded. The main role of Kinsman was to exercise the dispersal, not necessarily the crew. I know we went to Pershore (12(B) Sqn) when it was not on our target list.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Mark 2 I notice it had the Skybolt mounting points which suggests more likely Cottesmore, Certainly not Coningsby therefore after 1964.. In about '68 there was a swap between Waddington or Cottesmore so it could have been Waddington later on.