Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Misc. Forums > Aviation History and Nostalgia
Reload this Page >

Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)

Aviation History and Nostalgia Whether working in aviation, retired, wannabee or just plain fascinated this forum welcomes all with a love of flight.

Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)

Old 10th Aug 2008, 21:54
  #1301 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Dorking
Posts: 491
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Loved the Donald Campbell story. You would do it, wouldn't you?

Just been doing a little digging on Barnes Wallis; and it's obvious really. It was 617 Squadron, (Scampton?) October/November 1979.

But who were the crew? Which Vulcan was it? Woulld they like to meet that terrified juvenile builder? In Dorking...

And now, strangely, I find that Elliott Automation (for whom my Pa worked at one time) may have been involved in the AP? And, if that is the case, maybe I need to offer to do floor sweeping for 558. (We lived in Borehamwood from my arrival in 1957, moved to near Rochester in about 1962 until '67 - when he got his dream job with RR in 1967/8). I knew they did the AP for the Draken/Viggen, but the Vulcan? Did Elliott come up with Autoland?
boguing is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2008, 17:00
  #1302 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: France
Posts: 2,315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
boguing,
Food for some separate topics, almost
And now, strangely, I find that Elliott Automation (for whom my Pa worked at one time) may have been involved in the AP? (We lived in Borehamwood from my arrival in 1957, moved to near Rochester in about 1962 until '67 - when he got his dream job with RR in 1967/8).
I worked for SFENA, the French half of the Elliott/SFENA consortium that did the Concorde AP. But this was in the very early 70s, so your Pa's and my path wouldn't have crossed, although I've been to Rochester.
I knew they did the AP for the Draken/Viggen, but the Vulcan?
Vickers and then BAC worked with Elliott, deHavilland worked with Smith. I don't know about Avro.
Maybe somebody here remembers the label on the AP?
Did Elliott come up with Autoland?
I don't think so... the concept was around. Smith went for a triplex system (Trident...), Elliott went for a dual-monitored system (VC10, Concorde...). IIRC the first full autoland in the UK was a Smith equipped Trident.

Did the Vulcan have Autoland at some time in its career?
ChristiaanJ is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2008, 17:28
  #1303 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: England
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not really a Vulcan story per se, but I recall a certain Wg Cdr Adams who when I met him was Wg Cdr Cadets at DIOT Cranditz had Vulcan sorties in his log book...and a few tales, recounted in the bar after a few shandies...

A really nice chap, one who showed faith in a certain young potential JO...



Sadly taken by Cancer far too young.
El_Presidente is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2008, 19:12
  #1304 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 64
Posts: 2,277
Received 35 Likes on 14 Posts
Originally Posted by ChristiaanJ
Did the Vulcan have Autoland at some time in its career?
IIRC A Vulcan B1 (XA890) of the Blind Landing Exerimental Unit,was the first 4 jet engined aircraft in the world to carry out a fully automatic landing.
ZH875 is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2008, 19:53
  #1305 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: France
Age: 79
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Red face Donald Cambell

You are quite right about " Oh my ,what is going on?" We knew there was something afoot as we taxied on to the pan and saw the Staish waiting to ask a question or two. I was the Nav Rad.
SRAM is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2008, 21:09
  #1306 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: South Coast
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Smiths Autoland trials where carried out at Boscombe Down on both the Vulcan B2 and VictorMk2 in 1963.flew on both of them and got the certificate,
"Certified translated from airborne to ground, without let or hindrance from human hand" somewhere in the attic
Old Hairy is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2008, 08:41
  #1307 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Canberra Australia
Posts: 1,300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Smith's Mk10 Auto Pilot on the Vulcan Mk1 at Boscombe Down required many test hours coupling it to the Nav Bomb System and for auto ILS approaches. After finding the optimum settings on each avionic coupling unit we had to ensure that full rate runaways of the AP would not overstress the aircraft out to all corners of its manoeuvre envelope.

Adjustable spring struts interposed between the AP and the flight control system provided positive AP disconnects for all critical cases. One complication arose with the AP coupled for an auto ILS approach when the spring struts set for protection at high IAS could not cope with the AP inputs needed at the lower approach speeds. Problem solved by decreasing the forces from the flight control feel units when approach selected.

Would like to hear if there were any AP manoeuvering problems in squadrons ?
Milt is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2008, 09:07
  #1308 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,783
Received 257 Likes on 103 Posts
We were advised to ensure that the aircraft was slightly out of trim before connecting the AP, so that it had something to 'work against' - otherwise we were told that it would tend to hunt. I never did find out whether this was true, or just BS.

On an Auto-ILS, the aircraft was quite lively. There was a 180KIAS limit for flying with 'Track, LOC+GP' selected with the AP.

Flew all the way back across the pond once without an AP - we took 20 minute turns to fly the jet.
BEagle is online now  
Old 12th Aug 2008, 09:34
  #1309 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ring any bells? From a Sim site, but looks pretty accurate.

[IMG][/IMG]
forget is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2008, 10:59
  #1310 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,783
Received 257 Likes on 103 Posts
Yes, it's the MFS selector.

A frankly bizarre system which used a fixed, but manually rotatable compass card. Most pilots prefer the aircraft heading to be at the top!

I can't remember what 'Datum' did - but most of the other selections are reasonably obvious and affect such things as the Azimuth Director Pointer demand rate. I don't recall ever having used the 'Mach' selection; presumably it was used for cruise climbs at constant IMN when such things were permitted?

Autopilot and Heading Reference System / Military Flight System selectors were on other panels.

The HRS used an ex-Lightning Master Reference gyro. A pity that the MFS displays weren't thrown out and proper instruments fitted when HRS was fitted!
BEagle is online now  
Old 12th Aug 2008, 11:13
  #1311 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
More bells ringing? ( But I don't remember this.) From the same Sim site HERE

[IMG][/IMG]
forget is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2008, 11:38
  #1312 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,783
Received 257 Likes on 103 Posts
Smiths Autopilot controller. Conveniently sited on the retractable fuel tray panel about as far away from the instrument panel as possible. Hence the differently shaped knobs which you could identify by touch.

The aircraft was quite lively in Track, with LOC+GP on the MFS, but settled down once on the glide path with the Glide knob pulled.

You weren't supposed to fly with HRS steering on the approach. But the HRS was much more deadbeat than the MFS - you could get into a divergent lateral motion chasing the ADP at the same rate as the compass 'dot-crossing' rate in MFS if you weren't careful to let it damp out. So one dark wet night my captain elected to fly a PAR with the Nav Plotter controlling the HRS steer signal and it worked like a charm.

I've heard of people TFR'ing with HRS and Track, but with the E(levator) channel out. The autopilot looked after lateral navigation and they followed the MFS pitch pointer manually. I never tried that - we always flew manually at low level even though the aircraft was quite heavy in roll.
BEagle is online now  
Old 13th Aug 2008, 10:07
  #1313 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Why oh why would I wanna be anywhere else?
Posts: 1,305
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
I recall a certain Wg Cdr Adams
El Presidente was this the same bloke??

sisemen is offline  
Old 13th Aug 2008, 19:39
  #1314 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Home
Posts: 187
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The average Chief Tech rigger nowadays will have more medals than that lot put together!

Sorry for thread creep, I couldn't resist!!!
haltonapp is offline  
Old 13th Aug 2008, 20:23
  #1315 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: England
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Quote:
I recall a certain Wg Cdr Adams
El Presidente was this the same bloke??

Looks very very similar, even if it is a few years before I knew the fella...

El_Presidente is offline  
Old 13th Aug 2008, 20:42
  #1316 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
BEagle

20 minutes across the Atlantic?

We had it tough!

Lost the feel system getting airborne out of McLellan going to Hickam and it would not re-engage.

Being as I was the co-pilot and the Captain ( Flt Cdr) was doing his ATPL exams prior to retiring I flew the b8gger from McLellan to Hickam to Guam to Hickam to McLellan to Loring to Waddo.

I'm good at S & L

Oct 27 1979 - Nov 02 1979 XH537
The Real Slim Shady is offline  
Old 13th Aug 2008, 21:08
  #1317 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,783
Received 257 Likes on 103 Posts
Why on earth did the silly sod not just put the jet U/S at Hickolulu?

Dear Queen - please send some chaps and a feel sim test kit as soon as you can manage it. Do let us know when - we'll be quaffing Mai Tais at the Royal Hawaiian on Waikiki until then!

Looking at that itinerary, I suspect that I know the role you were involved in - and it wasn't just boat-spotting. Fortunately when I flew in that role in a rather more comfortable jet, we had sufficient range to avoid the need to go to Guam (or Midway).
BEagle is online now  
Old 13th Aug 2008, 22:59
  #1318 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Gilligans Island
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
We always had a list of totally trivial questions to try and catch out the new boys on the mighty C130K. One of which was 'where is the Bomb Door Compensator fitted?' It was of course on the Smiths Autopilot gubbins as fitted to the V force, which was shoe horned into Brit Hercs as part of the deal when we bought them.

My questions is what did the Bomb Door Compensator do? Obviously it makes some compensation when the doors are operated, but what and why?
country calls is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2008, 19:09
  #1319 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Why on earth did the silly sod not just put the jet U/S at Hickolulu?
It was his swansong and a few month's before the Sqn had the epic 3 wk Pacific Ranger that included Offutt and Kef amongst the various places they visited limping around the bazaars with a very tech jet.

The Captain of that one ( famed for his driving exploits at RCDS at Waddo),quite astutely, kept a very detailed chronology of exactly what went wrong, when and where.
The Real Slim Shady is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2008, 20:14
  #1320 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,783
Received 257 Likes on 103 Posts
country calls, the original Vulcan B1 had a pronounced nose-down trim change when the bomb doors were opened. So the test team and designers came up with a mechanical design to interlink the bomb doors with the elevator circuit so that the autopilot could hold the aircraft leve throughout the bomb run.

This was found to be unnecessary on aircraft with the ECM tailcone fairing, so was removed on the B1A and B2.

Another Heath Robinson compensating device was the ‘datum shift’ in the Gnat longitudinal control system which compensated for the landing gear extension forward CG movement through a piece of bike chain connected to the Hobson tailplane motor input. That gave another 3-ish degrees of TPI with the gear down. Simple, but effective!
BEagle is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.