Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
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Lots.
First I remember was "Five out over Valley" lots of kit was lost on that Mk 1, about 1966 I guess. There was a two-door cupboard and a 4-draw filing cabinet I was told along with countless classified documents. :0
Then there was a mark 2 oop North on the low level or thereabouts. They climbed to a safe bailout and jumped over the moors. There was a big brouhaha as they needed the AEOs Nav bag with the massive aircraft electrics manual.
Then there was the one that went in near Spilsby.
As far as I know these were all 'premeditated' bailouts, in other words the aircraft did not suffer an immediate and catastrophic failure. I do not know of any attempted bailouts with the nose wheel down.
We did a simulated low level abandonment after a simulated massive bird strike. At 250 kts, 500 feet, the pilot throttled all engines to flight idle and eased the beast into a gentle climb. We maintained a positive rate of climb for a few minutes topping at 1500 feet before the airspeed decayed. We would have had ample time to pack our kit and exit in slow time. The only difference between that and the real thing was the residual thrust of 4 engines at flight idle and no airframe damage.
A rapid abandonment would have had the Nav Rad swivel his seat, pull the air cushion know to push him into a standing position and release his seat straps. Down on the floor he would open the door hatch and pull the door release which would be blown open. He would grab the bar under the plotters seat, swing out and let go.
The oxygen umbilical would disconnect oxygen and intercom and the static line would activate the parachute. Min bailout was assessed to be 150 feet.
There was, IIRC, a secondary door open switch operated by the plotter. The AEO would follow the Nav Rad leaving the way for the plotter whose seat had an inflatable cushion but did not swivel. There were 'London Bus grab handles' hanging from the roof to help pull oneself upright.
I believe there were also successful rear crew abandonments from Valiant and Victor as well. The latter had 3 swivel seats.
First I remember was "Five out over Valley" lots of kit was lost on that Mk 1, about 1966 I guess. There was a two-door cupboard and a 4-draw filing cabinet I was told along with countless classified documents. :0
Then there was a mark 2 oop North on the low level or thereabouts. They climbed to a safe bailout and jumped over the moors. There was a big brouhaha as they needed the AEOs Nav bag with the massive aircraft electrics manual.
Then there was the one that went in near Spilsby.
As far as I know these were all 'premeditated' bailouts, in other words the aircraft did not suffer an immediate and catastrophic failure. I do not know of any attempted bailouts with the nose wheel down.
We did a simulated low level abandonment after a simulated massive bird strike. At 250 kts, 500 feet, the pilot throttled all engines to flight idle and eased the beast into a gentle climb. We maintained a positive rate of climb for a few minutes topping at 1500 feet before the airspeed decayed. We would have had ample time to pack our kit and exit in slow time. The only difference between that and the real thing was the residual thrust of 4 engines at flight idle and no airframe damage.
A rapid abandonment would have had the Nav Rad swivel his seat, pull the air cushion know to push him into a standing position and release his seat straps. Down on the floor he would open the door hatch and pull the door release which would be blown open. He would grab the bar under the plotters seat, swing out and let go.
The oxygen umbilical would disconnect oxygen and intercom and the static line would activate the parachute. Min bailout was assessed to be 150 feet.
There was, IIRC, a secondary door open switch operated by the plotter. The AEO would follow the Nav Rad leaving the way for the plotter whose seat had an inflatable cushion but did not swivel. There were 'London Bus grab handles' hanging from the roof to help pull oneself upright.
I believe there were also successful rear crew abandonments from Valiant and Victor as well. The latter had 3 swivel seats.
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Victor bailout failed
I stumbled across this site today : http://members.pcug.org.au/~jsaxon/b...k/victorin.htm
It gives an excellent and detailed account of an incident to a Victor in Australia. Although the order to abandon aircraft was given the aircraft manoeuvres were so violent that the crew failed in their attempts.
It gives an excellent and detailed account of an incident to a Victor in Australia. Although the order to abandon aircraft was given the aircraft manoeuvres were so violent that the crew failed in their attempts.
Thread Starter
Nice rare piccie, John - thanks for that!
Must have been taken when the UK actually had an air force - it's in black-and-white!
Must have been taken when the UK actually had an air force - it's in black-and-white!
This is one airframe that should have been saved:
Apologies for the poor quality
And a picture of XA900 at Cosford, when the snow on the wings lifted the aircraft and some concrete blocks, until she sat on her back end. Sadly, this airframe was left outside rotting until Cosford had no options but to scrap her.
Apologies for the poor quality
And a picture of XA900 at Cosford, when the snow on the wings lifted the aircraft and some concrete blocks, until she sat on her back end. Sadly, this airframe was left outside rotting until Cosford had no options but to scrap her.
Nixor ut Ledo
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55 pages - still receiving posts - loads of invaluable data, stories, and "atmosphere" - a refusal by the management to close it down - source material for Tim McLelland's book(s)........why hasn't this thread been reinstated to 'sticky' status? Just a thought.
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V-Force skills have been much appreciated since;
I'll never forget a Nav Rad who converted from green porridge to orange and found a motorway flyover just short of 33L at Kuwait in '91.
Cheers Barney.
I'll never forget a Nav Rad who converted from green porridge to orange and found a motorway flyover just short of 33L at Kuwait in '91.
Cheers Barney.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
How Crews Formed
I was asked to relate how Vulcan, and other V-force, crews were formed. The following relates to my first crew but was identical to the second occasion too.
The V-force operated a system of constituted crews, the crews would usually serve together for a full tour with the possible exception of the copilot who might be selected for a captaincy. The way the aircrew crewed up was however arcane.
The poster, either the Air Secretary’s department for someone new to the Command or the Bomber Command P-staff for the retreads, would have 10 to 15 people report to the School of Combat Survival at RAF Mountbatten. On the appropriate Sunday a number of individuals who gather, in dribs and drabs, in the small bar of the Officers’ Mess. Eventually introductions would follow. Some of the retreads might know each other but the rest would all be strangers.
The anonymous strangers emerged as AEOs, navs radar, navs plotter, and pilots. The youngest were often the AEOs who might be direct entry commission and barely 20 years of age. The nav radar and copilots might also be young, pushing 21. Even some of the would be captains might be only 22. Others might be ex-signallers from Coastal or Transport Command and in their mid-thirties. The plotters were often second or third tour Canberra navigators. The captains had usually done a previous tour as a copilot but a small number might have come from other types. The retreads were different. They may have had more than one tour on the V-force and were being recycled through Mountbatten to join a new crew.
One crew on my first squadron was a complete retread crew who had already served two tours on the Valiant; only their copilot was a newbie.
After we had established who was who came the crewing up. One driver was the intended posting of the captain. In my case there were two ex-copilots from Scampton. There were two slots - the free-fall wing at Coningsby and Blue-Steel wings at Scampton. One pilot had a house south of Lincoln and wanted to go to Coningsby. The other was happy to return to Scampton. One AEO was ex-Mark 1 Vulcans and he wanted to remain south of Lincoln too. Our would be plotter was from Germany and had not returned to UK so we were a man short but there was a ‘very old’ wing commander who was going through before a staff posting.
We finished the evening therefore with our new captain, an ex-Blue Steel copilot, a very experienced wg cdr navigator who had previously flown to Australia as a single nav on the Blue Steel trials, a Mark 1 Vulcan AEO, and a brand new copilot and nav radar (me). The other crew was similarly constituted with an apparent mishmash of individuals.
Early the new day we breakfasted together before going to the school. Lectures followed and in the afternoon we assembled for our first sea drill. January, sea temperature 2 degrees and no namby pamby immersion suits for us. A walk down to the jetty in no more than swimming trunks and denim overalls and carrying our pressure jerkin/life jackets.
Out in the launch with a couple of very brave RAF (VRT) officers who had foolishly volunteered to the experience. (A few of years later one was to suffer a heart attack from the cold shock). The launch seemed to go out for far too long. The water was slate grey, cold and obviously very wet. It was also quite rough but not rough enough. They took us out beyond the breakwater before getting us to jump in, one at a time, for the single seat dinghy.
One plotter, very keen to be in the water the minimum time managed to inflate his dinghy before he had got the pack open and it trapped his hand. He was now floating with just his lifejacket and a partly inflated dinghy on his hand. The instructors ignored his plight and carried on with the despatch of the rest of us into the water. From the moment I left the launch to the time I was picked up by the helicopter I have no further recollection. Apart that is from the RAF Launch which used to make high speed passes to encourage us to button up and bail some more. This was fairly standard practice, friendly fiendish bastards - no heart any of them.
The helicopter winching was an experience. From being relatively warm if wet I was suddenly blasted by cold air and possibly happier back in the dinghy. Once lowered back on to the launch I could not walk and had to be manhandled below.
If that was not enough we repeated the whole process the following day with the multi-seat dinghy and in our new crews. To add spice one member was selected as a casualty and another member was selected as rescuer. Neither job was liked as it just meant longer in the water. The other unpleasant job was righting the dingy. Inevitably, if successful, you would finish up underneath. At least it cemented the crew in adversity as they had, ‘with fortitude undergone the rigorous requirements of this school.’
After survival training the crews would undergo aviation medicine training at RAF North Luffenham, another unpleasant experience, especially the after effects of the Ruddles the night before.
From these two courses the crews would then assemble at the Operational Conversion Unit for a four month conversion. Unlike modern OCUs the V-Force OCUs were much more aircraft type conversion with the operational training carried out on the squadrons. As it happened both the Mk 2 crews ended up at Coningsby as the needs changed during the course.
Once constituted the crew would train together, fly together, stand quick reaction alert together and really live in each other’s pockets for the whole tour. It is a sad fact that almost all Vulcan crashes occurred when the crew was an ad hoc crew and this applied whether it was a copilot joining the crew for a check, or a sqn cdr displacing a captain for a copilot check, or even a temporary replacement for one of the rear crew.
In a way this was an echo of Bomber Command in the Second World War when a crew was often lost when one crew member was unable to fly that sortie. All crews had an intense dislike of having a ‘guest’ crew member, not least because flying with a guest did not count against the crew’s training requirements.
edited to add the RAF Launch used to make high speed passes to encourage us to button up and bail some more.
The V-force operated a system of constituted crews, the crews would usually serve together for a full tour with the possible exception of the copilot who might be selected for a captaincy. The way the aircrew crewed up was however arcane.
The poster, either the Air Secretary’s department for someone new to the Command or the Bomber Command P-staff for the retreads, would have 10 to 15 people report to the School of Combat Survival at RAF Mountbatten. On the appropriate Sunday a number of individuals who gather, in dribs and drabs, in the small bar of the Officers’ Mess. Eventually introductions would follow. Some of the retreads might know each other but the rest would all be strangers.
The anonymous strangers emerged as AEOs, navs radar, navs plotter, and pilots. The youngest were often the AEOs who might be direct entry commission and barely 20 years of age. The nav radar and copilots might also be young, pushing 21. Even some of the would be captains might be only 22. Others might be ex-signallers from Coastal or Transport Command and in their mid-thirties. The plotters were often second or third tour Canberra navigators. The captains had usually done a previous tour as a copilot but a small number might have come from other types. The retreads were different. They may have had more than one tour on the V-force and were being recycled through Mountbatten to join a new crew.
One crew on my first squadron was a complete retread crew who had already served two tours on the Valiant; only their copilot was a newbie.
After we had established who was who came the crewing up. One driver was the intended posting of the captain. In my case there were two ex-copilots from Scampton. There were two slots - the free-fall wing at Coningsby and Blue-Steel wings at Scampton. One pilot had a house south of Lincoln and wanted to go to Coningsby. The other was happy to return to Scampton. One AEO was ex-Mark 1 Vulcans and he wanted to remain south of Lincoln too. Our would be plotter was from Germany and had not returned to UK so we were a man short but there was a ‘very old’ wing commander who was going through before a staff posting.
We finished the evening therefore with our new captain, an ex-Blue Steel copilot, a very experienced wg cdr navigator who had previously flown to Australia as a single nav on the Blue Steel trials, a Mark 1 Vulcan AEO, and a brand new copilot and nav radar (me). The other crew was similarly constituted with an apparent mishmash of individuals.
Early the new day we breakfasted together before going to the school. Lectures followed and in the afternoon we assembled for our first sea drill. January, sea temperature 2 degrees and no namby pamby immersion suits for us. A walk down to the jetty in no more than swimming trunks and denim overalls and carrying our pressure jerkin/life jackets.
Out in the launch with a couple of very brave RAF (VRT) officers who had foolishly volunteered to the experience. (A few of years later one was to suffer a heart attack from the cold shock). The launch seemed to go out for far too long. The water was slate grey, cold and obviously very wet. It was also quite rough but not rough enough. They took us out beyond the breakwater before getting us to jump in, one at a time, for the single seat dinghy.
One plotter, very keen to be in the water the minimum time managed to inflate his dinghy before he had got the pack open and it trapped his hand. He was now floating with just his lifejacket and a partly inflated dinghy on his hand. The instructors ignored his plight and carried on with the despatch of the rest of us into the water. From the moment I left the launch to the time I was picked up by the helicopter I have no further recollection. Apart that is from the RAF Launch which used to make high speed passes to encourage us to button up and bail some more. This was fairly standard practice, friendly fiendish bastards - no heart any of them.
The helicopter winching was an experience. From being relatively warm if wet I was suddenly blasted by cold air and possibly happier back in the dinghy. Once lowered back on to the launch I could not walk and had to be manhandled below.
If that was not enough we repeated the whole process the following day with the multi-seat dinghy and in our new crews. To add spice one member was selected as a casualty and another member was selected as rescuer. Neither job was liked as it just meant longer in the water. The other unpleasant job was righting the dingy. Inevitably, if successful, you would finish up underneath. At least it cemented the crew in adversity as they had, ‘with fortitude undergone the rigorous requirements of this school.’
After survival training the crews would undergo aviation medicine training at RAF North Luffenham, another unpleasant experience, especially the after effects of the Ruddles the night before.
From these two courses the crews would then assemble at the Operational Conversion Unit for a four month conversion. Unlike modern OCUs the V-Force OCUs were much more aircraft type conversion with the operational training carried out on the squadrons. As it happened both the Mk 2 crews ended up at Coningsby as the needs changed during the course.
Once constituted the crew would train together, fly together, stand quick reaction alert together and really live in each other’s pockets for the whole tour. It is a sad fact that almost all Vulcan crashes occurred when the crew was an ad hoc crew and this applied whether it was a copilot joining the crew for a check, or a sqn cdr displacing a captain for a copilot check, or even a temporary replacement for one of the rear crew.
In a way this was an echo of Bomber Command in the Second World War when a crew was often lost when one crew member was unable to fly that sortie. All crews had an intense dislike of having a ‘guest’ crew member, not least because flying with a guest did not count against the crew’s training requirements.
edited to add the RAF Launch used to make high speed passes to encourage us to button up and bail some more.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 8th Mar 2007 at 06:50.
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Crewing Together
I was a few months behind Pontius as a co-pilot at Coningsby. We went through all the courses that he mentions but the final crewing together happened more slowly - we gradually emerged as crews during the Ground School phase of the OCU which followed Mountbatten and North Luffenham.
ACW
I well remember the agony of the explosive decompression at North Luffenham after a night on the Ruddles - I managed to pass out with the pain but they still passed me anyway!
ACW
I well remember the agony of the explosive decompression at North Luffenham after a night on the Ruddles - I managed to pass out with the pain but they still passed me anyway!
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...and here I was thinking selection was all down to good looks and charm!
It's really not that far removed from the WW2 system. I have an excellent recent book ISBN 1-86950-542-5, "Night After Night" dedicated to the 1850 New Zealanders who died in Bomber Command, and the crewing up process was very much a "I'm looking for a Navigator, are you free?"
It's really not that far removed from the WW2 system. I have an excellent recent book ISBN 1-86950-542-5, "Night After Night" dedicated to the 1850 New Zealanders who died in Bomber Command, and the crewing up process was very much a "I'm looking for a Navigator, are you free?"
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
One thing they taught you at NL was how to release gas from the lower gut.
I have been maintaining constant practice ever since.
I have been maintaining constant practice ever since.
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John
Very rare picture. I thought only first prototype flew with non-standard airbrakes.
Need help for my new Flight Testing the Vulcan book. Can't find Victor pages so trying here! Need Victor Mk1 span, length, wing area, empty weight, max weight. Can you or anyone help. Search web and so far had no success.
Very rare picture. I thought only first prototype flew with non-standard airbrakes.
Need help for my new Flight Testing the Vulcan book. Can't find Victor pages so trying here! Need Victor Mk1 span, length, wing area, empty weight, max weight. Can you or anyone help. Search web and so far had no success.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Samuel,
and it seemed to work. Most crews go on together even if the pairings were unlikely. On one crew the average age was about 44. The copilot was about 20.
That crew was never going to set the world on fire, on their own, but would have been a very steady and capable crew riding a nuc to war.
Others had an average age of about 25 with the old man of the crew usually the ex-kipper fleet AEO at 30.
Many crews were composed of direct entry commission aircrew who would depart at age 30 or 38 with very few destined for a permanent commission and full career in the RAF.
...and here I was thinking selection was all down to good looks and charm!
That crew was never going to set the world on fire, on their own, but would have been a very steady and capable crew riding a nuc to war.
Others had an average age of about 25 with the old man of the crew usually the ex-kipper fleet AEO at 30.
Many crews were composed of direct entry commission aircrew who would depart at age 30 or 38 with very few destined for a permanent commission and full career in the RAF.