Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
Fascinating thread on a marvelous plane. Was anyone here at the CFB Cold Lake Airshow in the summer of 1979? Was there in an ANG F-100 and what good time was had by all.
GF
GF
Yes, Him
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Hello Den,
Thanks for that. I have often wondered how many people have gone in as a result of performing for the cameras/press/VIPs. The "Hey, watch this" famous last words syndrome. Sad.
Thanks for that. I have often wondered how many people have gone in as a result of performing for the cameras/press/VIPs. The "Hey, watch this" famous last words syndrome. Sad.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Nimrod at Toronto for one.
I was lucky in the Vulcan. Inverted, 20,000 feet, climbing!
I was lucky in the Vulcan. Inverted, 20,000 feet, climbing!
Nimrod at Toronto
Pontius
The sad aspect of the Toronto accident was that it was an "action replay" of an incident during a display practice at Kinloss in the 1970s. Regrettably the lesson learnt that day at Findhorn had been forgotten by the time of Toronto.
YS
Nimrod at Toronto for one.
YS
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This thread is too good to let it drift off into a general discussion about aircraft accidents or other off topics posts - like many others before it. Please keep to the topic.
PPP
PPP
Thread Starter
If I recall correctly, the ac hit the undershoot of the 'old' runway causing substantial damage to the undercarriage in the process. They rolled (sort of) in order to try a belly landing, with bits falling off the ac, then the ac exploded in mid-air, killing the rear crew before they could bail out. Only the 2 pilots survived.
I seem to recall being told that the rules were changed shortly afterwards to ensure that the crew entrance ladder was always lashed down as the ladder in the Malta accident had obstructed the crew entrance door?
Edited to add: Seems my memory was correct, I've just found this very full account: http://www.flightlinemalta.com/airaccidents/XM645/ . Note that the co-pilot is at one point incorrectly described as the 'navigator'.
I seem to recall being told that the rules were changed shortly afterwards to ensure that the crew entrance ladder was always lashed down as the ladder in the Malta accident had obstructed the crew entrance door?
Edited to add: Seems my memory was correct, I've just found this very full account: http://www.flightlinemalta.com/airaccidents/XM645/ . Note that the co-pilot is at one point incorrectly described as the 'navigator'.
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A Vulcan doing CT at Luqa landed very hard in the undershoot, continued on the grass, making hard contact with the runway lip. The combination did severe structural damage to the landing gear and wings, including, I believe, rupturing fuel tanks. The captain got it airborne again to assess the state of the ac. Unfortunately, the aircraft caught fire and exploded in the circuit. The 2 pilots ejected, but the rear crew [which I believe included a crew chief] perished.
RIP, those fine men.
[Edited to say my post crossed with Beagles. Just confirming his facts]
RIP, those fine men.
[Edited to say my post crossed with Beagles. Just confirming his facts]
Last edited by FJJP; 19th Jan 2004 at 00:44.
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Here we are, more on XH536, and TFR trials are mentioned.
http://www.clwb-cerdded-ystalyfera.i...ages/xh536.htm
Vulcan Bomber XH536 of R.A.F. Cottesmore
11th February 1966
SN 913215 Fan Bwlch Chwyth at about 590 m
Reason for Flight
TFR trials [ Terrain Following Radar]
Cause of Crash
A low flying exercise that went badly wrong when the weather conditions become too bad for safe aircraft operations in the low level role, and the Pilot did not elect to fly at a higher altitude.
And more;
http://www.gpswalker.cwc.net/volcan.htm
http://www.clwb-cerdded-ystalyfera.i...ages/xh536.htm
Vulcan Bomber XH536 of R.A.F. Cottesmore
11th February 1966
SN 913215 Fan Bwlch Chwyth at about 590 m
Reason for Flight
TFR trials [ Terrain Following Radar]
Cause of Crash
A low flying exercise that went badly wrong when the weather conditions become too bad for safe aircraft operations in the low level role, and the Pilot did not elect to fly at a higher altitude.
And more;
http://www.gpswalker.cwc.net/volcan.htm
Last edited by forget; 22nd Oct 2006 at 09:38.
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Kicking my heels in Cardiff about 91 suggested by the locals that the scrapyard opposite was worth looking in - duly went ponceing about.The bulk of it - Hunter,various Sabres, lots of other stuff ok but minding my manners I didn`t touch.
I had been let in by a guy driving a small JCB thingy who appeared to be redefining the yard boundaries and I was very wary about being caught bang to rights - I really shouldn`t have been there ( suspect you`ve guessed ).
Next thing I knew there was a scrapyard XJ owner revving the valves out of his " pride and joy " apparently to get to me . . . . " have you been in the Vulcan ?"
"not touched it" I said
"Right" qouth he "use this to get the door down and don`t worry about putting it back - I`ll sort it out later" at which point he gave the jag an equal thrashing on the way out.
A layabout sat in the skippers seat of a Vulcan? sooo tiny and with a stick - x2 - like a Kestel 19 !
Amazing. Just wonder about the history of that aircraft.
Day off today and spent all night digesting this thread so please forgive the waffle - my lady did
I had been let in by a guy driving a small JCB thingy who appeared to be redefining the yard boundaries and I was very wary about being caught bang to rights - I really shouldn`t have been there ( suspect you`ve guessed ).
Next thing I knew there was a scrapyard XJ owner revving the valves out of his " pride and joy " apparently to get to me . . . . " have you been in the Vulcan ?"
"not touched it" I said
"Right" qouth he "use this to get the door down and don`t worry about putting it back - I`ll sort it out later" at which point he gave the jag an equal thrashing on the way out.
A layabout sat in the skippers seat of a Vulcan? sooo tiny and with a stick - x2 - like a Kestel 19 !
Amazing. Just wonder about the history of that aircraft.
Day off today and spent all night digesting this thread so please forgive the waffle - my lady did
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RE 536
The jury must be still out on this one. There are many Vulcan myths around [you could have an entire thread on this]. One 'fact' that pops up on occasion concerns the 'Ferranti' TFR. In reality it was built by GD in the US and is confirmed by PRO file AVIA 18/2437 Vulcan B. Mk2 and Victor B. Mk2 evaluation of the general dynamics terrain following radar system (ARI 5959) .
Indeed, one of the links quoted by forget says: "The Avro Vulcan... ... incorporated elements of ”fly by wire” computer control. The TFR was one element in that system [and was] ... connected directly to the AutoPilot." It didn't and it wasn't.
You cannot believe everything you read however authorative the medium is. It only takes one mention of 'terrain-following training' for one author to add the word 'radar' - not unnaturally thinking about it - and a new 'fact' is published and republished.
I would prefer to read the accident report or read about it in Air Clues. I would pay more attention to those who were around at the time than what I read in books or see on Web sites.
The TFR trials Vulcan XM606 was on loan to MoA from June 65 to May 67.
536 crashed in Feb 66. Would TFR have been released for crew training as early as this?
No reds:
The only aircraft that seems to match is XM569. I am not aware of any XJs being scrapped at Rhoose or St Athan.
http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/gary_sp..._daveprice.htm
Searching XM569 will bring up more info.
The jury must be still out on this one. There are many Vulcan myths around [you could have an entire thread on this]. One 'fact' that pops up on occasion concerns the 'Ferranti' TFR. In reality it was built by GD in the US and is confirmed by PRO file AVIA 18/2437 Vulcan B. Mk2 and Victor B. Mk2 evaluation of the general dynamics terrain following radar system (ARI 5959) .
Indeed, one of the links quoted by forget says: "The Avro Vulcan... ... incorporated elements of ”fly by wire” computer control. The TFR was one element in that system [and was] ... connected directly to the AutoPilot." It didn't and it wasn't.
You cannot believe everything you read however authorative the medium is. It only takes one mention of 'terrain-following training' for one author to add the word 'radar' - not unnaturally thinking about it - and a new 'fact' is published and republished.
I would prefer to read the accident report or read about it in Air Clues. I would pay more attention to those who were around at the time than what I read in books or see on Web sites.
The TFR trials Vulcan XM606 was on loan to MoA from June 65 to May 67.
536 crashed in Feb 66. Would TFR have been released for crew training as early as this?
No reds:
The only aircraft that seems to match is XM569. I am not aware of any XJs being scrapped at Rhoose or St Athan.
http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/gary_sp..._daveprice.htm
Searching XM569 will bring up more info.
Last edited by alamo; 19th Jan 2004 at 18:46.
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alamo - ‘Indeed, one of the links quoted by forget says: "The Avro Vulcan... ... incorporated elements of ”fly by wire” computer control. The TFR was one element in that system [and was] ... connected directly to the AutoPilot." It didn't and it wasn't’.
Agree 100%. It didn't and it wasn't. I posted the links without comment. With hindsight I should have covered your points
I’ve also seen mention of the 'Ferranti' TFR in various papers. It was certainly a General Dynamics kit but it’s possible it was manufactured by Ferranti under license.
See picture and more on 536 at;
http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/crown_c...arnborough.htm
but note ‘Seemingly, 536 was fitted with TFR before delivery to the Cottesmore Wing………..
Text;
Completed in August 1959 and retained by the manufacturers, the fourth Avro Vulcan B2 XH536 at the Farnborough Air Show in September 1959. 536 carries a Hawker Siddeley (Avro's parent company) logo behind the roundel and the words 'BRISTOL SIDDELEY OLYMPUS ENGINES' in the intake. (Bristol engines had merged with Armstrong Siddeley earlier that year). Note how 536 has yet to be fitted with an ECM tailcone. 536 was delivered to A&AEE at Boscombe Down in December 1959 and was officially allocated to the Ministry of Aviation for engine trials in May 1960. 536 entered RAF service in November 1965 with the Cottesmore Wing but crashed in February 1966 when it struck the ground during TFR trials with the loss of its IX Squadron crew.
The preliminary trials of the General Dynamics terrain-following radar ARI 5959 were held in 1965 on Victor B1 XA933. Vulcan trials were carried out on B2 XM606 which was loaned to the Ministry of Aviation from June 1965 to May 1967. Seemingly, 536 was fitted with TFR before delivery to the Cottesmore Wing and was used for squadron trials pending the modification with TFR on the Cottesmore Wing's 301engined Vulcans.
Agree 100%. It didn't and it wasn't. I posted the links without comment. With hindsight I should have covered your points
I’ve also seen mention of the 'Ferranti' TFR in various papers. It was certainly a General Dynamics kit but it’s possible it was manufactured by Ferranti under license.
See picture and more on 536 at;
http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/crown_c...arnborough.htm
but note ‘Seemingly, 536 was fitted with TFR before delivery to the Cottesmore Wing………..
Text;
Completed in August 1959 and retained by the manufacturers, the fourth Avro Vulcan B2 XH536 at the Farnborough Air Show in September 1959. 536 carries a Hawker Siddeley (Avro's parent company) logo behind the roundel and the words 'BRISTOL SIDDELEY OLYMPUS ENGINES' in the intake. (Bristol engines had merged with Armstrong Siddeley earlier that year). Note how 536 has yet to be fitted with an ECM tailcone. 536 was delivered to A&AEE at Boscombe Down in December 1959 and was officially allocated to the Ministry of Aviation for engine trials in May 1960. 536 entered RAF service in November 1965 with the Cottesmore Wing but crashed in February 1966 when it struck the ground during TFR trials with the loss of its IX Squadron crew.
The preliminary trials of the General Dynamics terrain-following radar ARI 5959 were held in 1965 on Victor B1 XA933. Vulcan trials were carried out on B2 XM606 which was loaned to the Ministry of Aviation from June 1965 to May 1967. Seemingly, 536 was fitted with TFR before delivery to the Cottesmore Wing and was used for squadron trials pending the modification with TFR on the Cottesmore Wing's 301engined Vulcans.
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No reds
Absolutely no offence. And don't shut up. Hope the link reminded you of a good day.
forget
Unfortunately, I wrote that last link you quote! I should heed my own advice! Mind you, I did partially cover my ar*e with 'seemingly'.
Absolutely no offence. And don't shut up. Hope the link reminded you of a good day.
forget
Unfortunately, I wrote that last link you quote! I should heed my own advice! Mind you, I did partially cover my ar*e with 'seemingly'.
Yes, Him
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No Reds,
I thought you were refering to the scrapyard owner's Jaguar XJ.
In the Malta accident I believe that a woman on the ground was also killed.
BTW, Lots of good tales about operating the B-58 and B-52 by an ex-SAC mate on his site here:
www.fortunecity.com/marina/havana/287/
I thought you were refering to the scrapyard owner's Jaguar XJ.
In the Malta accident I believe that a woman on the ground was also killed.
BTW, Lots of good tales about operating the B-58 and B-52 by an ex-SAC mate on his site here:
www.fortunecity.com/marina/havana/287/
(a bear of little brain)
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I remember being told about the Malta accident and having a vivid description of the crash by a friend who lives in the village. He was about 8/9 years old at the time and his father was based on Malta (on Shackletons). His father had gone to work that morning and he had gone down to the beach with his family, his dad having told him to watch out for his plane because they were the only flight due out that day - he said the Vulcan was an unscheduled flight.
He heard a plane taking off and turned to watch what he thought was his dad's aircraft take off then explode and crash in flames. As he put it 'I was a bit upset at the time'. Justifiably I think.
(Apparently his father was also in crew of the 'landing a Shackleton on a U.S. carrier incident' of legend).
He heard a plane taking off and turned to watch what he thought was his dad's aircraft take off then explode and crash in flames. As he put it 'I was a bit upset at the time'. Justifiably I think.
(Apparently his father was also in crew of the 'landing a Shackleton on a U.S. carrier incident' of legend).
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The TFR may certainly have been a piece of General Dynamics kit but it was always referred to by the Ferranti name in engineering crew rooms. Perhaps one of our ex-air radar fairies can enlighten us as to why? I do remember there being many more radomes than radars, so just because an aircraft had a TFR radome on its nose didn't necessarily mean that it was TFR equipped - at least up until 1969 anyway.
"Fly-by-wire" Vulcans ha-har... The main reason for all the secrecy was that the RAF didn't want the true state of affairs to leak out. The 'V' force were using electronic equipment left over from the european bomber offensive that had seen active service in Lancaster's - much of the radar navigation kit bore serial numbers indicating 1940's manufacture. It did the business though, just as the Shackleton was unbeatable at sub-hunting against the P3 Orion. Its the quality of the crew that counts.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
"Fly-by-wire" Vulcans ha-har... The main reason for all the secrecy was that the RAF didn't want the true state of affairs to leak out. The 'V' force were using electronic equipment left over from the european bomber offensive that had seen active service in Lancaster's - much of the radar navigation kit bore serial numbers indicating 1940's manufacture. It did the business though, just as the Shackleton was unbeatable at sub-hunting against the P3 Orion. Its the quality of the crew that counts.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema