and wouldn't it hurt if S.Q decide to turn the screws and start an airline here !
Plenty of crew out there who would gladly work for S.Q at a lower wage scale than Q.F.

Just my 2 bob's worth,

stay safe

Rev Dr Doug,

You've entered an interesting area here, regarding the relative pay of S/Os and F/Os.

The same argument sometimes holds true for senior F/Os on the 400 versus junior captains on the 767. The S/Os usually cop the heat , however, because they do not occupy a front seat and can be relatively junior.

From memory, the hourly pay rate for a type is initially agreed on for captains, and then the F/O and S/O hourly rates are determined as a percentage of the captain's hourly rate. If a new type enters service at a higher hourly rate for captains (maybe the A380, for example) then it follows on that the A380 F/Os and S/Os would get an equivalently higher hourly rate.

Combined with this is the fact that EBA pay increases are agreed to in straight percentage terms. Therefore, in time, the gap between 767 and 744 wages will widen even further in real dollar terms.

Finally, as JU has already said, having 2 S/Os on a very long sector is a much cheaper option for QF than running 2 Captains and 2 F/Os. So while it appears iniquitous that a S/O should get paid more than a F/O, it must still be cost effective for QF to do so. To rectify this anomaly would require a complete rewrite of the pay system, the contract or the seniority system, and that thread would go for hundreds of pages. Fleet pay at the highest hourly rate would solve all of these problems, but I can't see that happening in a hurry either!!

sirjfp,

"Absolutely" ;) (pardon the pun)

Regards, hoss

Three Bars


To rectify this anomaly would require a complete rewrite of the pay system, the contract or the seniority system, and that thread would go for hundreds of pages. Fleet pay at the highest hourly rate would solve all of these problems, but I can't see that happening in a hurry either!!


Exactly. That is what I would think the management will be striving for. After all, isn't that what they have effectively done at Australian. My guess is that nothing will be sacred once the slashing starts.

Fleet pay is one answer, but you know that it isn't going to be at the highest hourly rate, because that won't save any money.

Cop U Later


The Rev

Not the S/O thing AGAIN? Question: What is the difference between a F/O and a S/O? Answer: the latter is not fully trained or AUTHORISED to perform take-offs and landings. So he/she is paid less than the F/O. At QF, on a -400 for example, significantly less, I assure you.

Other than the above, the S/O is, in all other respects, a CO-PILOT, and is expected to have the knowledge of such and be able to perform the duties of such (emphasise again: with the exception of such duties below 5000' - in the QF case). Not all of them do so, unfortunately. A minority give the rank a bad name, and that is where Capts and F/Os have a role to play. A S/O is a CO-PILOT, not a seat warmer. Yes, he/she may have zero experience, or he/she may have millions of hours experience. I hear there is a new management S/O at QF with thousands of hours..........

I cannot understand the continual attack on QF S/Os by so-called professional pilots in this country. Then again I should - it's classic Aussie tall poppy syndrome stuff. You should be aspiring to the position, not trying to tear it down. (well ok, don't aspire to it if you don't want - long haul flying really isn't everyone's idea of a great flying job). But all you are doing is denigrating the profession of airline pilot in this job and playing into the hands of those who would love to pay professional pilots less.

That attitude + the proliferation of low cost operators (both onshore and OFFshore) means the profession of airline pilot has only one way to go in this country: B A C K W A R D S. Wait til the day we see teachers earning the same as new hires at QF. Nothing against teachers, mind you, but the way things are goin'.........

There are many, many other bloated costs and inefficiencies within QF that should be the target of the drive to reduce the cost of a T-km. Let's put our focus there, rather than trying, amongst ourselves, to destroy our profession.

One can only think this trend will continue.

One example is IT - loads of US, European & other country-based firms now have their IT operations in India. Cheap labour which is becoming very skilled... masters-degree-level people doing call centre work.

I can imagine a situation where someone sets up a flying school in India (as an example), trains up from ab-initio to JAR ATPL-standard & type endorsed, ready to go in at s/o level. Get a few ex-mil types in with a few thou' hours, chuck in the odd western ex-senior F/O or Cap'n given the boot from somewhere or from a failed airline & looking for a comeback and you have ready-made crews.

Can't happen? That's been said before...

No, I dunno what the answer is, personally if I fly on an a/c with a country's flag on it I like the voices I hear to be the appropriate accent but shareholders want their returns...

Taildragger67, all too true mate.

There is little in the current environment that could be encouraging for any jet driver, especially a QF one.

The new sweatshops are not shoemakers in the Phillipines making Nike runners. The new sweatshops are people like Indian university graduates in law, medicine and computer science taking the jobs that Westerners now do.

Next time you call up a help line for your Bank balance, or software support, or internet service provider calls, you might be talking to Ranesha who calls herself Jane and has done a course on Australian attitudes and behaviour, talking to you from downtown Delhi.

So anything that could be done by phone support does not need to be done in Australia. Why pay $60K for a fully qualified accountant in Oz when you can get the same work done for $10K?

And it is not just over the phone stuff. Only a few years ago, coastal shipping around Oz was the business of Australian National line, australian ships with australian bridge and deck officers, and australian deck hands. Now there is only one or two Australian registered ships doing this work. Just about ALL the DOMESTIC shipping work into and out of aussie ports is now done by Ukrainian and other eastern european CAPTAINS, ships officers and a collection of eastern european and asian crews who do the same job as the Aussies did at a fraction of the pay, in the very ships that used to be on the Australian register. And it was all set up by the Australian government issuing exemption after exemption to 'foreign' registered vessels.

That is where we are headed, friends.

Nicely put Ushuaia

Well said Ushuaia

Ushuaia

The answer lies in your post.

"Yes, he/she may have zero experience"

Think about that statement, and reflect on why I think management could get away with paying S/O's less than they currently do.

Cop U Later

The Rev

Rev, yep,

I hear you, have thought a lot about that myself. There is logic in an argument that cadet S/O's with zero experience should be paid something less than an S/O with thousands of high quality hours (eg, heavy jet, military, or regional command). It DOES seem irrational that a 150 hr total bloke/blokette can enter a pay system whereby after 18 months he/she is earning very good money. But I don't want to go there - where do you draw the line or lines? I will not be drawn any further on S/O pay vs everybody else. And is not the thrust of my previous post anyway.

The thrust of my previous post is that we seem to be about the only mob I know anywhere in Aus that seems hell bent on tearing our own conditions and pay down. We publicly declare members of our own profession overpaid! We have people prepared to do the same job for less, far less. No other profession I have ever encountered in my 40 yrs does this, as far as I have been aware! Ever hear of doctors, lawyers, teachers taking such a line about their own profession? You don't, do you. For us, that HAS to change. People have to start thinking more positively and with confidence about the pilot profession, and what it's worth

That's all I'm trying to say.

Ushuaia

I can't comment on Doctors, Lawyers etc, because I don't frequent Proffessional Doctors Rumor Network etc. For all I know there is probably the same inequality amongst those professions the world over also.

I understand your position as well. I don't want to see pay and conditions in Oz erode either. I may need a job back there some day. My point is that having had the benefit of a broader look at the global aviation scene now that I am O/S, I believe that the QF operation is unsustainable given the cost base of some of QF's competitors.

I was told that a QF baggage handler earns around $60000 per year. I don't know if that is accurate, but our baggage handlers earn around $6000 per year. That gives you an idea of what QF (and US majors) are up against. It is implausible that baggage handlers wages can be reduced to the level of ours, therefore the cuts must be made across the board, even to areas that may not seem overpaid, so that the average comes back to a level where QF can sustain competitive seat prices.

When I worked in Oz, I was oblivious to the global implications of the airline business and thought that the Govt would never let QF or Ansett go out of business. That's how naive I was.

After moving over here and being made aware how brutal the aviation business is in Europe, it occured to me that QF and Ansett would be in serious trouble if they didn't reduce their costs and improve productivity. QF picked up a short term windfall due to the unfortunate demise of Ansett. This has given QF some much needed breathing space, but can't be sustainable. SQ clearly think that there is still some fat to be trimmed. It seems clear to me (IMHO) that QF must adapt or be overwhelmed.

You are clearly aware that difficult times may be ahead. Be proactive, get involved and get the best deal out of it you can.

Cop U Later

The Rev

After watching a few sims with S/o's with nil experience vs S/o's with lots of experience, i would definately say that the S/os with no experience can be better than the S/os with lots of experience. I can also definately say that there are times that the S/o with lots of experience can be better than the S/o with little experience, and i can also definately say that at times they can be equally skilled. Your experience vs Pay for new S/os is broadly speaking without merit.

USHUAIA

At last! Someone with a brain!

I hear you loud and clear. Your observations on our profession are absolutely spot on!

Its time people understood how destructive the various public debates on pilots pay and conditions really are.

The truth is simple,this profession by its very nature demands high calibre people. Whether you are flying a four engined jet or a regional turboprop for airline a or airline b the job remains the same.

Management would be the first to say that executive pay scales simply reflect the quality of the people doing the job.

Well HELLO! The same ought to apply to pilots AUSTRALIA WIDE!

Now that we've prattled on about Second Officers, can we talk about something substantive, something like the subject of the thread would be good.

Please tell me you seriously don't believe S/O's are the cause of all the problems at QF, do you?

Ding:confused:

No in point of fact S/O's are not the problem.

The rev hid the nail on the head when he drew the baggage handler comparison.

QF's non-technically qualified staff are massively overpaid by world standards.

In addition to which we have a massive management bureacracy which does not value add to the business model

Reverend Doctor Doug
 

Beautifully put Reverend Doctor Doug. It's not about tech crew bashing or trying obscure tricks with crewing. The reality is that difficult times are ahead for ALL airlines. You said Be proactive, get involved and get the best deal out of it you can. and I reckon that's the best advice ever.

The fact is that QF is up for change. Dixon and his team are a godsend to QF because they are determined to drag it into 21st century airline economics and make it survive - no matter how many people resist. Plus the QF team has some mighty canny people. BTW - I don't talk to Dixon and don't get paid by him.

But the airline world has changed, and the global implications of the airline business are now here at Ozland. I was surprised to read RDD say that a QF baggage handler earns around $60000 per year = (a) stupid (b) slightly less than Ansett paid bfore they went belly up, and (c) more dangerous to QF than a box cutter on the flight deck.

And I'm not isolating out baggage handlers as the problem - it's a problem right across the QF empire from the pointy end to the pointy heads. Reducing costs and improving productivity is what is needed to lead to job security. As I re-read this, it sounds like I'm airhead union bashing, and I'm not trying to at all. I would love QF to survive and win. I reckon that they've been handed fantastic opportunities, and gained some valuable breathing space. I've rattled on about their economics and their ability to do the market dominance thing in the parallel PPRUNE D&G topic "WA Airline price War". They'll go well in the future as long as no internal grouping gets bloody minded and f**ks it all up.

Watch PPRUNE as a barometer on the future of QF. When there's eventually a posting on "how we can make QF more productive" rather than "QF attacks pay, staff, boo-hoo", then QF has turned the corner.

Some fairly sweeping statement being made here regarding the efficiency of QF crew. Remember we get paid BY THE HOUR .

A UA 744 flying to OZ with 2 Captains and Two F/O's is costing UA in excess of $750 US per Hour.

A QF crew, flying the same route in the same aeroplane, is costing QF around $470 Oz per hour.

Some of you experts grab a calculator and work out how much cheaper that is over a 15 hour flight and then tell me QF tech crews are inefficient.

I dares't ya!

Overun

Thanks for that clarification. I was getting worried. I realise that I am not the most eloquent of contributors, but clearly my message is being lost on most.

I am in no way attacking QF S/O's. Had things turned out different I would have happily been one myself. They are just an example I used because I happen to know a little about what they get paid and what they do, in comparison to some other airlines. Overun seems to have caught my drift. No one area can or will be isolated as the problem. Everyone will be under the microscope.


The_Cutest_of_Borg

You are flying with blinkers on. Yes UAL guys get paid heaps more than QF. That is one of the reasons they are in Chapter 11.
The threat QF faces is not coming from UAL, (although chapter 11 does give them a significant advantage over an Australian company in the same position). It is from the carriers with lower cost bases.

If anyone thinks that UAL salaries are the benchmark then I believe you will be in for a rude shock in the years ahead. As much as anyone, I would like Cathay A scale to be the world standard. The simple fact is that it all translates to ticket prices. Most of the punters no longer give a damn about who is up the front. They just want cheap tickets, TV's in the seats (read new airplanes) and good looking cabin crew serving their G&T's. I don't think QF has any of these on international routes.

Ticket prices are directly linked to company overheads. He with the lowest overheads will win. All this tripe about pride in uniforms and working hard for the privilege is ignoring the fact that the shareholders (owners)are the driving force. If they are not making a buck then things must change.

I think I will bow out of this thread now. I only stuck my nose in to try and highlight some of the difficulties that I can see ahead. And to encourage you to develop a realistic, unified platform from which you can defend your position


Cop U Later


The Rev

Thanks to that ex 89 guy who set up VB after a stint in Europe (taking someone elses job) Oz pilots are now faced with crushing pressure to work for peanuts. NICE ONE! Hold the country to ransome in 89 then come back 10 years later and destroy pilot wages for good. What a fantastic career! Airline flying in Oz and getting paid accordingly is HISTORY thanks to wage pressure from VB and a poor QF pilots union who fold like wet cardboard under any management pressure. The damage has been done and is irrepairable.