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-   -   Qantas buys Alliance (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/646505-qantas-buys-alliance.html)

blubak 5th May 2022 04:19


Originally Posted by davidclarke (Post 11225215)
Just what we need. Less competition.

This cannot be good for Australian aviation.

Letís hope the accc stop this.

Yet another pilot group to play off against each other, further driving down wagesÖÖ.

Isnt this exactly what he would have wanted,another group of pilots to play off against any other group that opposes him.
The word 'opportunist' comes to mind,along with a few others which would probably not be appropriate on here.

Going Nowhere 5th May 2022 04:37

If it goes through, itíll be the end of Fokkerís at Network.

Theyíll focus on 320/321.

As for NJS, if they thought they had little cards to play in their EBA negotiations before, they have close to none now.

parishiltons 5th May 2022 05:55

I have considerable respect for the timing and prescience demonstrated by Alliance's management. I'm guessing they think something is about to happen either in the economy or the aviation industry such that Alliance has chosen this moment as the best time to take the money and run. Remember their previous incarnation, Flight West Airlines, with some of the same names in management? Flight West chose to go into voluntary liquidation shortly before the Ansett collapse and was reincarnated/did a Phoenix as Alliance the following year. I wonder how it will play out this time around?

Australia2 5th May 2022 07:40

The initial rumour mill at Alliance was it could be up to 30 E190’s.

“We’ve opened up several new passenger routes using up to 18 of Alliance’s E190s, so bringing all 33 of these aircraft, plus their crews, into the Qantas Group would really expand what we could achieve.
“We plan to extend our program of guaranteed lower fares for residents in those few communities where Alliance operates its own passenger services, as well as access to our Frequent Flyer program,” added Mr Joyce
.

Maybe it wasn’t far off the mark . . . . . .

Icarus2001 5th May 2022 08:48

No rumours needed. Just read the ASX releases. 16 announced and 14 announced. Thirty airframes.
If you want rumours, how about up to fifty aircraft.
I

Alice Kiwican 5th May 2022 11:33

VIrgin wonít be overly excited about if considering they also use Alliance in some RPT routes

IAW 5th May 2022 14:38


Originally Posted by Alice Kiwican (Post 11225422)
VIrgin wonít be overly excited about if considering they also use Alliance in some RPT routes

Maybe VARAs announced 737-700s will be the replacement for East Coast F100 ops, not just west Coast FIFO?


AerialPerspective 5th May 2022 15:12


Originally Posted by PoppaJo (Post 11225250)
Depends how convincing Virginís argument is. They put forward a strong case against the QF/Japan tie up which got rejected (and rightly so), with the regulator citing many reasons VA raised.

Well, it'd have to be pretty convincing to get around the fact that VA bought SkyWest, then if I remember correctly, parked some of it's aircraft and some of the VA aircraft, then realised they didn't have enough so had to pay through the nose for Alliance to operate for them.

Couple that with the absolute debacle that was the A320/737 at TT and the stuff up with being kicked off the DPS route after repeatedly being warned it wasn't allowable to substitute another carrier, whether you owned them or not.

I think it would be hard to justify any objection after VA themselves gobbled up a FIFO carrier.

I look forward to QF showing VA how to make an E190 operate profitably.

unobtanium 5th May 2022 16:09

so the qantas domestic fleet now has

e190 94 seat's
f100 100 seat's
717 110 seat's
220 137 seat's
737 174 seat's
320 180 seat's
321 200 seat's

anymore niche's to fill?


DropYourSocks 5th May 2022 16:15

Welcome to the whipsaw, a common tactic US legacy airlines used for over 20 years to keep their regional partners cheap. It was literally this tactic that had regional pilots living on government assistance because they were paid so little.

The good news is, the whipsaw works both ways. If one of Qantas' subsidiaries can land a better contract, the others will rise too. But if one takes a concessionary contract, the rest come down. Good luck to all involved, you deserve a win.

aussieflyboy 5th May 2022 21:17


Originally Posted by unobtanium (Post 11225563)
so the qantas domestic fleet now has

e190 94 seat's
f100 100 seat's
717 110 seat's
220 137 seat's
737 174 seat's
320 180 seat's
321 200 seat's

anymore niche's to fill?

Iíve heard theyíve put in a bid for Shoal Air (KNX) and Air Frontier (DRW) so they can further expand their network and ensure QF have adequate interline pax into the future.

neville_nobody 5th May 2022 22:25


Welcome to the whipsaw, a common tactic US legacy airlines used for over 20 years to keep their regional partners cheap. It was literally this tactic that had regional pilots living on government assistance because they were paid so little.
A strategy which resulted in the bankruptcy of most regional airlines, new laws passed for minimum experience levels for RPT and a subsequent pilot shortage, with airlines forced to import foreign labour and put passengers on buses. But don’t worry I’m sure those in management who arranged all that still got their bonus.

belongamick 5th May 2022 22:54


Originally Posted by aussieflyboy (Post 11225704)
Iíve heard theyíve put in a bid for Shoal Air (KNX) and Air Frontier (DRW) so they can further expand their network and ensure QF have adequate interline pax into the future.

Can't wait for the photo op with Geoff and Alan, together, dressed in their business best in the Air Frontier 'boardroom' :}​​​​​

gordonfvckingramsay 6th May 2022 00:08


Originally Posted by neville_nobody (Post 11225728)
A strategy which resulted in the bankruptcy of most regional airlines, new laws passed for minimum experience levels for RPT and a subsequent pilot shortage, with airlines forced to import foreign labour and put passengers on buses. But donít worry Iím sure those in management who arranged all that still got their bonus.

And let us not forget the Colgan accident. The tactic so loved by our airline management here in Oz actually contributed to the deaths of a Q400 load of people.

DropYourSocks 6th May 2022 00:52


Originally Posted by neville_nobody (Post 11225728)
A strategy which resulted in the bankruptcy of most regional airlines, new laws passed for minimum experience levels for RPT and a subsequent pilot shortage, with airlines forced to import foreign labour and put passengers on buses. But donít worry Iím sure those in management who arranged all that still got their bonus.

100%!! The whipsaw is an evil practice, but those who are implementing it today in Aus will have ridden off into the sunset years ahead of these consequences. Unfortunately, as is always the case, it's the pilots with broken careers left to pick up the pieces. Hopefully the US hoovers up enough Aussie pilots for the whipsaw to be to the detriment of airline management.

For perspective, the US is slated to hire in the order of 10,000 pilots every year for the next little while (how long who knows). Aussies won't make the slightest dent in the shortage here, but a loss of even 10% of the Aussie workforce would certainly liven up the domestic scene.

stillcallozhome 6th May 2022 02:57


Originally Posted by neville_nobody (Post 11225728)
A strategy which resulted in the bankruptcy of most regional airlines, new laws passed for minimum experience levels for RPT and a subsequent pilot shortage, with airlines forced to import foreign labour and put passengers on buses. But donít worry Iím sure those in management who arranged all that still got their bonus.

Slight difference is that in the USA, most ďregionalsĒ werenít wholly owned - they were essentially wet leases. Most of the majors sold them off. A couple were bought back over the years but the leverage came from them being owned by independent companies fighting it out to get the flying contracts. This forced wages down.

Wasnít it Pinnacle, when they were independently owned, that won a bid for delta flying (?) right after the pilots got a new contract and then filed for chapter 11 so they could revert to the old contract wages so they could continue the flying? Disgusting

Mr Approach 6th May 2022 03:29

It is inconceivable (to me) how a competition regulator could possibly approve this acquisition.
Alliance not only provides aircraft and crews to Qantas's main competitor, it also provides competition to Qantas and Virgin on FIFO and other charter contracts, such as transporting football teams around.
Qantas, at one swoop, would have driven up costs for Virgin, mining companies and anyone else that wants to hire an aircraft bigger than a Navajo.
Did the Morrison Government really provide all that taxpayer money to Qantas during the pandemic so that Mr. Joyce could spend it all on getting rid of his competition?
Never mind the ACCC there should be an outcry from the taxpayers!


ebt 6th May 2022 04:05


Originally Posted by Mr Approach (Post 11225815)
It is inconceivable (to me) how a competition regulator could possibly approve this acquisition.
Alliance not only provides aircraft and crews to Qantas's main competitor, it also provides competition to Qantas and Virgin on FIFO and other charter contracts, such as transporting football teams around.
Qantas, at one swoop, would have driven up costs for Virgin, mining companies and anyone else that wants to hire an aircraft bigger than a Navajo.
Did the Morrison Government really provide all that taxpayer money to Qantas during the pandemic so that Mr. Joyce could spend it all on getting rid of his competition?
Never mind the ACCC there should be an outcry from the taxpayers!

The thing is that the ACCC looked into Qantas's first strike in taking the 20% slice of Alliance for three years, and ultimately cleared it, knowing full well that Qantas bought that stake with a view to taking over Alliance. The end of that investigation gave Qantas tacit approval, and although the ACCC will drag their feet in approving the full takeover, it will more than likely pass.

In a year or so once the takeover is completed, the landscape will look very interesting, but there are alternatives to QQ out there. Cobham has been scaling up the Q400s and E-Jets in WA and is up for sale, Airnorth has added frames and must surely be looking for some sweet, sweet charter revenue. Australian Corporate Jet now has an ERJ-145 and could add more pretty cheaply, so that could take up some of the more ad hoc work.

Jet Jockey 6th May 2022 05:20

Not bad for an airline that received a billion odd dollars in Gov support during covid and here we are 4 months after borders open able to spend a billion on another airline acquisition. Just proves what folks have said on here for years what a master manipulator AJ and his team really are. More like an Irish Shiester !

parishiltons 6th May 2022 05:47


Originally Posted by Mr Approach (Post 11225815)
It is inconceivable (to me) how a competition regulator could possibly approve this acquisition.
Alliance not only provides aircraft and crews to Qantas's main competitor, it also provides competition to Qantas and Virgin on FIFO and other charter contracts, such as transporting football teams around.
Qantas, at one swoop, would have driven up costs for Virgin, mining companies and anyone else that wants to hire an aircraft bigger than a Navajo.
Did the Morrison Government really provide all that taxpayer money to Qantas during the pandemic so that Mr. Joyce could spend it all on getting rid of his competition?
Never mind the ACCC there should be an outcry from the taxpayers!

Joyce is not spending real money. The transaction is funded by issuing new Qantas shares and exchanging them for Alliance shares.


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