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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

currawong 14th Sep 2020 05:43

The QLD (like all the others) border is not closed.

Restricted. Not closed.

Entry is conditional. Not closed.

Some people just don't get it.

Xeptu 14th Sep 2020 05:59

This is where stats and expectations don't necessarily work, So what really happened and I get this from my own girls ok. VIC didn't get anywhere near what they planned to cope with before they were calling out for help. Not many put their hand up, but some went to help. It didn't work they discovered their systems and procedures are different, they were next to useless to them and managed to get themselves infected as well. It was an epic fail. Two that got infected were under 30 and are still not recovered back to normal. If anything it has strengthened their resolve to keep the borders closed.

Chronic Snoozer 14th Sep 2020 05:59


Originally Posted by Xeptu (Post 10884710)
You guys are entitled to lobby for support, I get it, that's democracy. I don't believe for a minute you'll be successful, but on an outside chance you are and secure a greater majority, then we the minority will have to take it on the chin, walkaway and isolate ourselves. The problem with that in our state is that we can't cope with a VIC type crisis with all hands on deck as it is, a good number of those have already declared that should that happen we have no choice but to walk away and isolate. That situation extends to a good number of essential community services. It's likely to collapse the functional economy of the state, particularly around the capital city. A big call for a covid unaffected state.

The important things to us
We don't want to get infected
We want to live as normally as possible within our state to the crisis is passed
Most importantly we don't want to crash our economy or overwhelm essential services.
Two things that will change our position
A vaccine
A reliable quick test that can be used to better manage our border controls

Do not make the mistake of speaking for everyone within the state of WA.


that's democracy.
Maintaining a border "closure" and stipulating that 6 other states must concurrently show no community transmission for 28 consecutive days before reopening doesn't sound like democracy. Prohibiting travel between two Australian cities which have no known cases without mandatory two weeks quarantine is not particularly democratic. It's risk avoidance not risk management. Like aviation, things would all be a lot safer if we just all stayed at home.

Maybe the next decision will be to vaccinate everyone (when its available) and let's just see if it actually works outside the state before we reopen. That should only take another 6 months or so.


With all hands on deck, we have declared that won't be happening.
Classic storeman's excuse, you can't have the last one someone might need it.


Xeptu 14th Sep 2020 06:09


Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer (Post 10884738)
Do not make the mistake of speaking for everyone within the state of WA.

I'm sorry you're quite right, "what is important to the majority of us"

Chronic Snoozer 14th Sep 2020 06:21


Originally Posted by Xeptu (Post 10884741)
I'm sorry you're quite right, "what is important to the majority of us"

I remember seeing something about approval ratings but no substantial survey. Do you have the link?

Xeptu 14th Sep 2020 06:27


Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer (Post 10884748)
I remember seeing something about approval ratings but no substantial survey. Do you have the link?

Better still, do one yourself, any populated area, select 10 random people and ask the question. You should get around 8 in 10 say borders closed for now anyway.

I don't have a link, the polls get taken down

Bend alot 14th Sep 2020 06:30


Originally Posted by slats11 (Post 10884725)
So what exactly is the Victorian crisis.

105 hospital admissions? 3 wards. Across the whole state.

11 in ICU? Australia has 2000 ICU beds (public and private) and have surge capacity of another 2000. Of these 4000, figure 25% are in Victoria. So 11/1000 = 1% of resources.

Elderly deaths in residential aged care facilities? Yes that is sad.
About 200,000 Australians live in RACF. So maybe 50,000 in Victoria.
Another way to think of this number is 5-6% of Victorians older than 65.
Approx 20% of these people (so 10,000) die in a given year. That normally passes unnoticed. Infections, dementia, neglect, falls & trauma, cancer, suicide ... 10,000 per year.
Against that background, 500 RACF deaths is sad but perhaps not a crisis.

What about the other side of the ledger. What about the costs of lockdown
Increased mental health and self harm
Increased drug use.
Increased domestic violence
Increased child abuse
Kids disconnected from school
Economic costs
Businesses closed down
Families losing their homes

it’s not a simple exercise to balance these

But it is intellectually dishonest not to at least recognise the other side of the ledger.


Victoria running out of healthcare staff - you can can 25 million beds, but they need to be staffed.

RACF - not sure your number/s are correct - but MOST aged care is NOT in aged care facilities.

MOST aged care is not government funded either.

KRviator 14th Sep 2020 06:40


Originally Posted by currawong (Post 10884726)
The QLD (like all the others) border is not closed.
Restricted. Not closed.
Entry is conditional. Not closed.
Some people just don't get it.

Semantics.

The Western Australia border is closed to NSW and VIC residents if you are not:
  • a senior Government official who is carrying out the official's duties, is responsible (alone or with others) for the safety of the Nation or a State or territory against threats such as terrorism, war, or espionage and is required to be present in Western Australia in connection with those duties;
  • Active military personnel (including members of the Australian Defence Force Reserve on active duty) required to be on duty in Western Australia while in Western Australia; or
  • A person who is carrying out functions under a law of the Commonwealth
  • The Premier of Western Australia and any member or members of the Premier's staff
  • A Commonwealth parliamentarian or
  • Are specifically authorised by the Emergency Services Commissioner.
The other 14,500,000 citizens who are not one of those categories are forbidden from entering Western Australia.

You can call the border "restricted" all you want. The practical effect of the directions though, is to specifically exclude nearly 60% of Australian's citizens from entering WA, based on nothing more than the Citizens state of residence.

michigan j 14th Sep 2020 06:47


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 10884764)
The other 14,500,000 citizens who are not one of those categories are forbidden from entering Western Australia.

You can call the border "restricted" all you want. The practical effect of the directions though, is to specifically exclude nearly 60% of Australian's citizens from entering WA, based on nothing more than the Citizens state of residence.

And to add to this, WA residents who are overseas practically cant get in either...

PM Morrison added that the reason the government was asking airlines to reduce seats was that the country can’t technically turn away citizens at the border. The move will come into effect from Monday and will be followed shortly after by plans to charge those returning for their hotel accommodation.

https://australianaviation.com.au/20...stralia-84831/

currawong 14th Sep 2020 07:05

If you need to go for something important, apply for an exemption.

Then number 6 will apply.

Others have. :ok:
  • certain senior Government Officials
  • certain active military personnel
  • a member of the Commonwealth Parliament and any members of their staff travelling with them
  • a person carrying out functions under a law of the Commonwealth
  • the Premier of WA and any members of the Premier's staff
  • a person coming to WA at the request of the Chief Health Officer or the Director General of Health
  • any person (other than an airline or maritime crew member) responsible for transport or freight and logistics services into or out of WA

Stickshift3000 14th Sep 2020 07:05

Lots of people still trying to return home to Aus - am I the only one that wants to get out for a holiday (to NZ) but can’t!?

Chronic Snoozer 14th Sep 2020 07:15

No. Definitely not the only one.

Square Bear 14th Sep 2020 07:21

[/QUOTE] You should get around 8 in 10 say borders closed for now anyway.[/QUOTE]

You would probably get the same result if the question was about succession from the Federation.....and that result would be down to parochialism rather than common sense......No difference to Covid, at least IMHO.

dr dre 14th Sep 2020 07:50


Originally Posted by Xeptu (Post 10884710)
Two things that will change our position
A vaccine
A reliable quick test that can be used to better manage our border controls

Where has that been stated? The only thing from the WA government has been a revisiting of Stage 5 and border procedures in late October (conveniently before the November High Court case is heard btw). They have not said a thing about vaccines or rapid tests, so you’re making stuff up.

A reliable vaccine may be 2-3 years away from distribution. 91% may support it today, but for the next 2-3 years?

I think the key date for full reopening in WA will be March, state election + end of Jobkeeper.

Don’t think there isn’t talk in WA about the border control

ruprecht 14th Sep 2020 08:13


Originally Posted by Square Bear (Post 10884792)
You would probably get the same result if the question was about succession from the Federation.....and that result would be down to parochialism rather than common sense......No difference to Covid, at least IMHO.

Yup. It’s WA — you just need to mention it’s a threat from “The East” and 8 out of 10 will grab their pitchforks and head for the border. :hmm:

Ragnor 14th Sep 2020 08:21

Mr Marshall has said they could open their borders as early as tomorrow, they are meeting with the transitional committee in the morning if they advise its good to go then by afternoon we could see free travel. Then QLD will look stupid when NSW,ACT,SA and NT from Oct 9th are freely travel.

Then that imbecile SM will have egg on his face.

michigan j 14th Sep 2020 08:28

For info in case anyone finds this useful... Latest arrival data.

All overseas arrivals to Australia in August 2020 (provisional estimates):

• 15,400 estimated trips, 8,800 of these are Australian citizens
• 9.1% of all arrivals were those arriving on temporary other visas.

The three largest visa groups arriving in Australia in August 2020 were:
• Temporary other visas (1,400)
• Permanent skilled visas (940)
• Temporary visitor visas (910).
https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/3401.0.55.004

KRviator 14th Sep 2020 08:48


Originally Posted by currawong (Post 10884776)
If you need to go for something important, apply for an exemption.

Then number 6 will apply.

Let's see there...
  • This email serves as a notification that your request to undertake travel in accordance with the Directions restricting travel into, and within the State of Western Australia has been RECEIVED.
    • ​​​​​​​Application status: REJECTED. Reason for unsuccessful application: Proposed travel itinerary as you have declared that you will be in Victoria in the 14 days prior to your arrival in Western Australia. (Note, I didn't declare that at all, their website coding wasn't up to date. I haven't been in Victoria in years)
  • ​​​​​​​This email serves as a notification that your request to undertake travel in accordance with the Directions restricting travel into, and within the State of Western Australia has been RECEIVED.
    • Application status: REJECTED. In line with the Quarantine (Closing the Border) Amendment Directions (No 2) your G2G PASS has NOT BEEN APPROVED for entry into Western Australia (Due to being in NSW within the last 14 days).
  • ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​This email serves as a notification that your request to undertake travel in accordance with the Directions restricting travel into, and within the State of Western Australia has been RECEIVED.
    • ​​​​​​​Application status:REJECTED. In line with Section 5 (e)(i) of the Quarantine (Closing the Border) Amendment Directions (No 3) your G2G PASS has NOT BEEN APPROVED for entry into Western Australia.
Yep, those important things, you know, like being able to put food on the table, or keep the lights on, because I'm not eligible for JobKeeper or Centerlink benefits really mean a lot to the team at Operation Tide who overseas those applications. BTW, go have a look at the Quarantine (Closing the Border) Amendment Directions (No 2) order. People from NSW were still permitted to travel, but Victoria was locked out. But still the application was rejected and you have no recourse, no avenue to appeal.

Bend alot 14th Sep 2020 08:49


Originally Posted by michigan j (Post 10884854)
For info in case anyone finds this useful... Latest arrival data.

All overseas arrivals to Australia in August 2020 (provisional estimates):

• 15,400 estimated trips, 8,800 of these are Australian citizens
• 9.1% of all arrivals were those arriving on temporary other visas.

The three largest visa groups arriving in Australia in August 2020 were:
• Temporary other visas (1,400)
• Permanent skilled visas (940)
• Temporary visitor visas (910).
https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/3401.0.55.004

A 309 is a temporary visa (other) and they have paid many thousands of $'s and often waited 18+ months for that visa.

Any reason you singled that group?

Turnleft080 14th Sep 2020 09:17

Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
Two things that will change our position
A vaccine
A reliable quick test that can be used to better manage our border controls



A reliable quick test is being tested in Israel at the moment. Without looking up anything I did see a news item on it last week
on 3aw. It would provide a 30 sec result. It would be 98% accurate. Well lets hope it's a goer.
This will come out before any vaccine I reckon. If available it would open all borders (wether you like it or not premiers) crossing by car, bus, train, plane, at check in or at the crossings.
Your negative go through, your positive turn back and isolate. Probably still not good enough for the premiers.
Watching this space though.


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