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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

Jester64 19th Feb 2022 01:42


Originally Posted by airdualbleedfault (Post 11186404)
Indeed they have , apparently Mcclown still has a 64% approval rating, they ain't too bright over there :}

Meaning they approve whatever he says and does. A lot of people took this as two-thirds actually wanted the borders to stay closed - which wasnít what the surveys / polls were asking, they simply agreed with his decision, but the majority of us wanted it open at some point in the near future, because two-thirds of them agreed with him for a 05FEB reopening right until the point he back-flipped, then they agreed with his back-flip.

Anyhow bring on the reopening and the increase in recruitment activity that we can see happening amongst the QF group. Iíve been lucky, wish the same for others.

BuzzBox 19th Feb 2022 02:26


Originally Posted by Jester64 (Post 11186406)
...because two-thirds of them agreed with him for a 05FEB reopening right until the point he back-flipped, then they agreed with his back-flip.

It is a fallacy that two-thirds agreed with the 5 February reopening right up until the point he back-flipped. The truth is that we simply don't know, because the only poll on the subject took place on 21 December, a month before McGowan deferred the reopening. At the time of that poll, the effect of Omicron on the Eastern States was not apparent. Another poll that was taken a few days after the so-called 'backflip' found that some 71% of respondents agreed with the decision. The best we can say is that a lot of people changed their mind about reopening some time over the course of the month between the first and second polls.

The insinuation that West Australians are a bunch of lemmings who hang off McGowan's every word is quite simply wrong and, frankly, offensive.

Jester64 19th Feb 2022 02:32


Originally Posted by BuzzBox (Post 11186410)
It is a fallacy that two-thirds agreed with the 5 February reopening right up until the point he back-flipped. The truth is that we simply don't know, because the only poll on the subject took place on 21 December, a month before McGowan deferred the reopening. At the time of that poll, the effect of Omicron on the Eastern States was not apparent. Another poll that was taken a few days after the so-called 'backflip' found that some 71% of respondents agreed with the decision. The best we can say is that a lot of people changed their mind about reopening some time over the course of the month between the first and second polls.

The insinuation that West Australians are a bunch of lemmings who hang off McGowan's every word is quite simply wrong and, frankly, offensive.

There were more polls and surveys done other than what was published on the front page of the West Australian. Canít recall the date of them but they were with reference to the 05FEB reopening.

Apologies, I didnít mean to cause offence but itís just my opinion that a huge cross-section of the community do trust and hang onto every word he says. Iím a West Aussie and Iíve seen it amongst those around me.

BuzzBox 19th Feb 2022 03:29


Originally Posted by Jester64 (Post 11186411)
There were more polls and surveys done other than what was published on the front page of the West Australian. Canít recall the date of them but they were with reference to the 05FEB reopening.

Apologies, I didnít mean to cause offence but itís just my opinion that a huge cross-section of the community do trust and hang onto every word he says. Iím a West Aussie and Iíve seen it amongst those around me.

I'd be interested to see these other 'polls and surveys'. I did find another poll reported in The West Australian on 8 January. That poll found that 40% of respondents were in favour of reopening, 40% opposed and 20% unsure. That's a massive drop in support from the 21 December poll and it seems clear to me that public opinion was changing well before McGowan deferred the reopening.

Jester64 19th Feb 2022 03:41


Originally Posted by BuzzBox (Post 11186424)
I'd be interested to see these other 'polls and surveys'. I did find another poll reported in The West Australian on 8 January. That poll found that 40% of respondents were in favour of reopening, 40% opposed and 20% unsure. That's a massive drop in support from the 21 December poll and it seems clear to me that public opinion was changing well before McGowan deferred the reopening.

So just over one-third disagreed according to that published poll. Anyhow, borders are fully opened Australia wide for domestic and international travel come 03MAR. Great news for our industry right? Signing off this thread before I get banned again :{

SRFred 19th Feb 2022 07:39


Originally Posted by Jester64 (Post 11186425)
Anyhow, borders are fully opened Australia wide for domestic and international travel come 03MAR. Great news for our industry right? Signing off this thread before I get banned again :{

No, WA still requires G2G permits if approved for you, Australians must be triple jabbed but overseas people only double jabed. It is a sick joke!

SHVC 20th Feb 2022 18:49

International is finally open today bring much needed tourist dollar for our industry. The embarrassment that Australia is continues, tourist get off their plane and walk into an empty train station as these drivers hold our state to ransom again.

MikeHatter732 20th Feb 2022 20:47


Originally Posted by SHVC (Post 11187195)
The embarrassment that Australia is continues, tourist get off their plane and walk into an empty train station as these drivers hold our state to ransom again.

Maybe you should do some research on what actually is causing the stop work today (does a think called lockout ring a bell), rather than carrying on with your typical anti-union malarkey.

cLeArIcE 20th Feb 2022 21:06


Originally Posted by MikeHatter732 (Post 11187239)
Maybe you should do some research on what actually is causing the stop work today (does a think called lockout ring a bell), rather than carrying on with your typical anti-union malarkey.

100% this. Someone in the NSW government been on the phone to AJ for advice?

KRviator 20th Feb 2022 22:09


Originally Posted by SHVC (Post 11187195)
International is finally open today bring much needed tourist dollar for our industry. The embarrassment that Australia is continues, tourist get off their plane and walk into an empty train station as these drivers hold our state to ransom again.

UUhh, yeah nah.

Thousands of ST crew (not just Driver's, but Guards, PSS's and CSA's too, they're all covered by the same EA) are at their depot's, signed on and ready, willing and able to work a train. Transport for NSW unilaterally cancelled every service today after losing a pair of court cases for PIA over the weekend, that allowed Sydney Trains crews to enforce a "work to published roster" arrangement and decline any service alterations.

The Union & ST argued in court for and against the PIA, ST lost and rather than accommodate their loss and still run services, even at a reduced frequency, spat the dummy and cancelled everything a'la AJ a few years ago.

You'll note the early headlines referred to it as a "strike", this ain't the case, and now the headlines, from the Daily Mail through to News.Com.Au & the ABC are starting to tell it like it is - a TfNSW decision to cancel the trains, not a "strike" or Industrial Action...

MikeHatter732 20th Feb 2022 22:16


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 11187265)
UUhh, yeah nah.

Thousands of ST crew (not just Driver's, but Guards, PSS's and CSA's too, they're all covered by the same EA) are at their depot's, signed on and ready, willing and able to work a train. Transport for NSW unilaterally cancelled every service today after losing a pair of court cases for PIA over the weekend, that allowed Sydney Trains crews to enforce a "work to published roster" arrangement and decline any service alterations.

The Union & ST argued in court for and against the PIA, ST lost and rather than accommodate their loss and still run services, even at a reduced frequency, spat the dummy and cancelled everything a'la AJ a few years ago.

You'll note the early headlines referred to it as a "strike", this ain't the case, and now the headlines, from the Daily Mail through to News.Com.Au & the ABC are starting to tell it like it is - a TfNSW decision to cancel the trains, not a "strike" or Industrial Action...

SHVC was clearly having his morning coffee watching Sky news.

Ladloy 20th Feb 2022 22:29


Originally Posted by MikeHatter732 (Post 11187267)
SHVC was clearly having his morning coffee watching Sky news.

Boomer Breakfast

unobtanium 20th Feb 2022 22:34


Originally Posted by SHVC (Post 11187195)
International is finally open today bring much needed tourist dollar for our industry. The embarrassment that Australia is continues, tourist get off their plane and walk into an empty train station as these drivers hold our state to ransom again.

The embarassment starts the minute they land into a disgrace of an airport, then get barked at by border force goons (WE SPEAK ENGLISH HERE), after finally picking up what remains of their bag, join the 200m long bag search que, then finally get out of the terminal and get immediately robbed by dodgy limo drivers or overpriced train tickets.


morno 20th Feb 2022 22:50


Originally Posted by unobtanium (Post 11187271)
The embarassment starts the minute they land into a disgrace of an airport, then get barked at by border force goons (WE SPEAK ENGLISH HERE), after finally picking up what remains of their bag, join the 200m long bag search que, then finally get out of the terminal and get immediately robbed by dodgy limo drivers or overpriced train tickets.

Itís easier and less robbery at a third world Asian country

blubak 21st Feb 2022 05:53


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 11187265)
UUhh, yeah nah.

Thousands of ST crew (not just Driver's, but Guards, PSS's and CSA's too, they're all covered by the same EA) are at their depot's, signed on and ready, willing and able to work a train. Transport for NSW unilaterally cancelled every service today after losing a pair of court cases for PIA over the weekend, that allowed Sydney Trains crews to enforce a "work to published roster" arrangement and decline any service alterations.

The Union & ST argued in court for and against the PIA, ST lost and rather than accommodate their loss and still run services, even at a reduced frequency, spat the dummy and cancelled everything a'la AJ a few years ago.

You'll note the early headlines referred to it as a "strike", this ain't the case, and now the headlines, from the Daily Mail through to News.Com.Au & the ABC are starting to tell it like it is - a TfNSW decision to cancel the trains, not a "strike" or Industrial Action...

I would have thought that working to a published roster was exactly what syd trains would be expecting of their employees.
If suddenly syd trains didnt like the roster they had published,maybe they should be looking at their rostering dept for an answer-its not up to the employees to point out the anamolies in a roster.
Bit like an airline CEO suddenly deciding he doesnt like the conditions in an EA that has been in existence for quite a period of time & has either his signature or an authorised officer of his airline's signature on it when it was agreed to.

KRviator 21st Feb 2022 07:03


Originally Posted by blubak (Post 11187340)
I would have thought that working to a published roster was exactly what syd trains would be expecting of their employees.

Getting quite off topic but....

On the contrary, ST publishes a "Master Roster" for each depot, that has dozens of different lines on it, each line corresponds to an individual driver, and tells them what specific job they'll be doing each day, so the Driver can roughly plan their lives, as each specific job has details of each train they'll drive throughout the shift. What ST has been doing - due to chronic understaffing - is swapping driver's jobs between them, or requiring a, say, Sydney Central driver to cover Hornsby working, and in turn, stuffing them around by getting them home later than their (original, Central) roster said. The other problem that is ongoing is the rostering of Driver's to repeatedly work on their RDO's and getting peeved when they refuse. This is the norm, rather than the exception and is solely due to ST not having enough staff, to the point they're basically running the network on the goodwill of the crew doing overtime.

A rough corollary would be rocking up to work a nice 0900-1700 day flying Syd-Bne-Mel-Syd triangle and being told "Oh, the previous crew booked off sick, and we're still short over west, so now you're doing Syd-Drw-Per-Kta-Per-Kta-Per-Syd and getting home god knows when. CityRail had this very same issue back in 2004 when crews got jack of working continuous OT and said "Enough's enough. Family time is more important!" and the network virtually collapsed then too. Everything old is new again...

The other point the union is making regards the new NIF Mariyung trains and the ST dream to have them setup as Driver-Only-Operation, with no Guards on board, and the associated job losses. I've worked DOO freighters for 12 years and wouldn't wish DOO working in the Sydney Metro passsenger network on anyone. Yes, I know it can be done, but I firmly believe it shouldn't be done...Driver-Only working, especially on freighters, is quite enjoyable if you're a bit introverted but the way in which ST (and Metro in Melbourne) want it to be done is not as safe as having a Guard on board, no matter what the Transport Minister says...

Lead Balloon 21st Feb 2022 07:37

But surely train drivers are like plane drivers. Just turn up whenever told at short notice, drive the train (plane) wherever told at short notice, be responsible for the management of the safety of all of the passengers for 10 plus hours, shut down and peel off home and relax. How hard could it be?

KRviator 21st Feb 2022 08:36


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11187373)
But surely train drivers are like plane drivers. Just turn up whenever told at short notice, drive the train (plane) wherever told at short notice, be responsible for the management of the safety of all of the passengers for 10 plus hours, shut down and peel off home and relax. How hard could it be?

You'd be surprised, but it's actually not like that for the most part. Some shifts ("Local Relief" or "Standby" types) yes, but they're the exception rather than the rule.

The job itself is not "hard" per se' and you can be re-tasked if your originally-assigned train is cancelled, but "forecast rosters" are something that has been (very) hard fought for in various depots over time and they are a major selling point for companies in attracting and retaining crew. Ie Your Master Roster has you doing Shift pattern "Central-05A"and the actual working of "Central-05A" may be "All stations to Penriff, then All stations to North-Sydney & have crib. Pick up next train at North Sydney and work all stations to Berowra then all stations to Central & signoff at time xx:xx." You know your signon time, your distance travelled (as you can get km-based payments if you work over X km's) and your signoff time down to the minute (if everything works normally). An actual Sydney Trains job diagram is shown in this video at the 15s mark. Apparently I can't just link it, it shows the actual preview instead of the BBcode text...:ugh:

Some depots have what is known as "Blank line" or "Pencil" working, where you know your RDO's and that is it. You don't know what you're doing tomorrow until you sign off today and the working is almost exactly as you describe. ie my old signoff phone call would be "Cheers, KR, got you off at 1600, job for tomorrow is 0300 on, work train 1535 to Walgett and load." Other depots have specific rostered sign-on times(and usually signoff as well, when things are running well) for the typical working of that depot (usually container & passenger trains) as they run to a timetable. Blank line working, though, is shyte. You can't plan a damn thing, fatigue is a major problem and consequently so is retention, so some companies actively market their forecast rosters in their job ads, like PN do here.

The ST problem they have created for themselves through lack of recruitment, is twofold. One is the ongoing requirement to have crews work on their RDO's just to run a 'normal' timetable and the other is the constant changing of roster's (with the attendant changes in signon/signoff times) to try to cover the normal timetable (or services they deem a priority) without sufficient crew to do so.

SOPS 21st Feb 2022 08:52


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 11187407)
You'd be surprised, but it's actually not like that for the most part. Some shifts ("Local Relief" or "Standby" types) yes, but they're the exception rather than the rule.

The job itself is not "hard" per se' and you can be re-tasked if your originally-assigned train is cancelled, but "forecast rosters" are something that has been (very) hard fought for in various depots over time and they are a major selling point for companies in attracting and retaining crew. Ie Your Master Roster has you doing Shift pattern "Central-05A"and the actual working of "Central-05A" may be "All stations to Penriff, then All stations to North-Sydney & have crib. Pick up next train at North Sydney and work all stations to Berowra then all stations to Central & signoff at time xx:xx." You know your signon time, your distance travelled (as you can get km-based payments if you work over X km's) and your signoff time down to the minute (if everything works normally). An actual Sydney Trains job diagram is shown in this video at the 15s mark. Apparently I can't just link it, it shows the actual preview instead of the BBcode text...:ugh:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poxoz4MIilA&t=15s

Some depots have what is known as "Blank line" or "Pencil" working, where you know your RDO's and that is it. You don't know what you're doing tomorrow until you sign off today and the working is almost exactly as you describe. ie my old signoff phone call would be "Cheers, KR, got you off at 1600, job for tomorrow is 0300 on, work train 1535 to Walgett and load." Other depots have specific rostered sign-on times(and usually signoff as well, when things are running well) for the typical working of that depot (usually container & passenger trains) as they run to a timetable. Blank line working, though, is shyte. You can't plan a damn thing, fatigue is a major problem and consequently so is retention, so some companies actively market their forecast rosters in their job ads, like PN do here.

The ST problem they have created for themselves through lack of recruitment, is twofold. One is the ongoing requirement to have crews work on their RDO's just to run a 'normal' timetable and the other is the constant changing of roster's (with the attendant changes in signon/signoff times) to try to cover the normal timetable (or services they deem a priority) without sufficient crew to do so.

We have our rosters 5 weeks ahead. You can basically see what shifts you have from the ďguide rostersĒ, 2 years ahead. If I could be bothered, I can see my RDOs, 3 years ahead. RDOs are set in concrete and canít be touched. Sign off time is sign off time.. incase of a major disruption and you go past sign off time.. you are straight into overtime. ( so usually the will get you ďoff trafficí to avoid this.)

Fairdealfrank 25th Feb 2022 18:15


Thousands of ST crew (not just Driver's, but Guards, PSS's and CSA's too, they're all covered by the same EA) are at their depot's, signed on and ready, willing and able to work a train. Transport for NSW unilaterally cancelled every service today after losing a pair of court cases for PIA over the weekend, that allowed Sydney Trains crews to enforce a "work to published roster" arrangement and decline any service alterations.
What's with all the initials?!

Need to explain/write it out in full as many on PPRUNE are not in the rail industry and/or not Australian.


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