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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

SOPS 2nd Jan 2022 02:04


Originally Posted by minigundiplomat (Post 11163558)
From first hand experience Omicron is a bad cold. Time to restart the world

The thousand people in hospital in NSW may disagree with you.

Icarus2001 2nd Jan 2022 02:34

SOPS when someone who is very sick or is perhaps eighty years old and being supported by multiple medications, gets a cold, they are often sent to hospital.
I asked above but you sped past like a train past closed points...
What would you do with the W.A. border?

Ladloy 2nd Jan 2022 03:40


Originally Posted by Icarus2001 (Post 11163759)
SOPS when someone who is very sick or is perhaps eighty years old and being supported by multiple medications, gets a cold, they are often sent to hospital.
I asked above but you sped past like a train past closed points...
What would you do with the W.A. border?

a lot of them are in their 50s and 60s. Just like this forum.

Jester64 2nd Jan 2022 03:42


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11163756)
The thousand people in hospital in NSW may disagree with you.

Thousands of people in hospital due to contagious respiratory viruses is nothing new. In 2019 Australia had over 4,000 admitted to hospital in one winter flu season.

At time of writing, 188,723 active cases (true case count likely to be much higher), with just 48 on ventilators Australia wide.

43Inches 2nd Jan 2022 04:29


In 2019 Australia had over 4,000 admitted to hospital in one winter flu season.
While I agree Omicron is shaping up to be less severe, that is 4000 admissions over a season or year, not at one time. Most of which are overnights for observation not long stays. The problem is the surge in cases is definitely leading to a responding increase in hospitalisations, even if O is 10 times less severe than D it's spreading at 100 times the rate, so overall more will require hospital and deaths are to come. Again when dealing with large numbers in the population game statistics just take over and numbers spit out of the grinder. Also for most of Australia the tap is jammed open now, there's no more control over the numbers at all so we are going to deal with it in whatever way it chooses now, not how we choose.

Jester64 2nd Jan 2022 04:49


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11163781)
While I agree Omicron is shaping up to be less severe, that is 4000 admissions over a season or year, not at one time. Most of which are overnights for observation not long stays. The problem is the surge in cases is definitely leading to a responding increase in hospitalisations, even if O is 10 times less severe than D it's spreading at 100 times the rate, so overall more will require hospital and deaths are to come. Again when dealing with large numbers in the population game statistics just take over and numbers spit out of the grinder. Also for most of Australia the tap is jammed open now, there's no more control over the numbers at all so we are going to deal with it in whatever way it chooses now, not how we choose.

SA premier:

"We see a lot of admissions but also a lot of people are leaving hospital on a daily basis after their conditions have stabilised”.

Cases are going to increase, deaths are going to happen. Keeping the border closed does more harm than what 48 people on ventilators per 188,000 reported cases does. Come 5th Feb the bedwetters and bootlickers in Western Australia are in for a rude awakening.


turbantime 2nd Jan 2022 06:31


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11163756)
The thousand people in hospital in NSW may disagree with you.

I have family members that work in various Sydney hospitals. This is very different to the delta wave.

They swab every single person that is being admitted. This inevitably leads to an increase in numbers as many are asymptomatic and are there for other ailments. On top of that, many are anxious after testing positive, and as one family member puts it: “they add sauce to their story, so we have no option but to admit them.” Obviously there are some that do require treatment for Covid but are not hooked up to high flow oxygen etc. Their stay is also 24-48 hours on average now.

While I agree that we have to careful not to overwhelm the system based purely on sheer numbers, this ‘wave’ is different and that’s coming from people working in the emergency departments.


Jester64 2nd Jan 2022 06:48

My wife has two cousins working in the system also, 1 doctor, 1 nurse. What they’ve said is the majority of cases are discharged within one to two days and don’t require ICU / ventilation. He said / she said of course, but the numbers speak for themselves….2000 current covid hospitalisations with 2.5% of this 2000 requiring ventilation. And the majority of that 2.5% are unvaccinated. What I haven’t seen data on is how many of the ICU patients deliberately chose not to vaccinate themselves?

Interestingly what the nurse said is that they can’t seem to cope with the influx of mentally ill patients they are presented with (especially in Melbourne), and this is a direct result of the lockdowns in 2021 according to Kids Helpline and Beyond Blue etc.

43Inches 2nd Jan 2022 07:38


Interestingly what the nurse said is that they can’t seem to cope with the influx of mentally ill patients they are presented with (especially in Melbourne), and this is a direct result of the lockdowns in 2021 according to Kids Helpline and Beyond Blue etc.
Emergency mental health issues are an issue all the time for the major city hospitals, it's one of the departments that's massively understaffed. As for increases in people seeking mental health help there is two sides to this, some of it is lockdown related, but a big chunk are those now finding the time to deal with these issues while on lockdown and seeking help. I've seen some pretty big blowups of mental health cases trying to get prescription meds off general staff, who can't do anything until a qualified doctor can see the history. Usually ends up with security staff and a generally bad day for all involved. Remembering that an ED visit by a mentally ill patient is usually when they have been off meds for some time, this ain't someone having a blue moment cause they can't see the girlfriend, more likely shouting and trying to kill things or themselves. There may also be a lot of cases of drug dependent cases that cant get their normal supply of whatever going off the rails. One thing that was suprising is that suicide rates fell during all lockdowns, seems worklife and financial pressures are worse than lockdown, who would've thought.

Jester64 2nd Jan 2022 09:32


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11163834)
Emergency mental health issues are an issue all the time for the major city hospitals, it's one of the departments that's massively understaffed. As for increases in people seeking mental health help there is two sides to this, some of it is lockdown related, but a big chunk are those now finding the time to deal with these issues while on lockdown and seeking help. I've seen some pretty big blowups of mental health cases trying to get prescription meds off general staff, who can't do anything until a qualified doctor can see the history. Usually ends up with security staff and a generally bad day for all involved. Remembering that an ED visit by a mentally ill patient is usually when they have been off meds for some time, this ain't someone having a blue moment cause they can't see the girlfriend, more likely shouting and trying to kill things or themselves. There may also be a lot of cases of drug dependent cases that cant get their normal supply of whatever going off the rails. One thing that was suprising is that suicide rates fell during all lockdowns, seems worklife and financial pressures are worse than lockdown, who would've thought.

I often see that line thrown around on social media about how suicide rates are down, but the only data I could find was referring to the statistics on 2020. 2021 was a much different story for Melbourne, and the press reports have come out from various organisations saying that admissions to ED due self harm have sky rocketed in 2021, especially from the adolescent demographic. If you have a link about the suicide rate for 2021 please share it. It’s worthy to note that attempted suicide and ED admissions is something that whilst not resulting in suicide, it’s still an event which can be life altering, and takes up resources in an already stretched system.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www....391b0653%3famp

minigundiplomat 2nd Jan 2022 10:02


Originally Posted by CaptCloudbuster (Post 11163672)
Based on a sample size of one:rolleyes:

I’m currently in the UK and just about everyone I know has had it, or has it. Almost 200k cases a day and deaths are down 30+% but feel free to lock yourselves up again.

43Inches 2nd Jan 2022 10:26


I often see that line thrown around on social media about how suicide rates are down, but the only data I could find was referring to the statistics on 2020. 2021 was a much different story for Melbourne, and the press reports have come out from various organisations saying that admissions to ED due self harm have sky rocketed in 2021, especially from the adolescent demographic.
https://www.aihw.gov.au/suicide-self...cide-registers

That's the data for Victoria which is up to date to September, there is a spike there, but generally the year is down. Also have to remember these were attempts that were successful. In 2020 there is the usual spike before the lockdowns even started, just the post christmas malladies which has us all returning to reality after party season. But overall the general consensus is that while calls for assistance were up, actual attempts at suicide were no more than usual. Its also key to remember that peaks/troughs could be due to group suicides etc, not just individuals as what happened in Melbourne at the start of 2021 where a group of school friends decided to go together.

There is some interesting data there though, looks like NSW was much more affected than Victoria and QLD in the attendances. Vic had a slight decline from 20-21 and NSW had a sharp rise and then decline. Despite having much shorter lockdowns and less impact on daily life. If you take out the sharp rises in NSW and Vic pre lockdowns it really is level pegging.

I'm in no way saying lockdown was easy on people, but most people are mentaly tough, it takes a lot to knock a person down to that level and usually requires some sort of local environmental push and lack of intervention. For instance its a classic sociopathic trait to claim you are going to kill your self for attention to get their way, teenagers often also resort to this with no actual intention, so this can answer in part some increases in calls for help. And yes a lot are real and serious, who knows but their psyche professionals.

Jester64 2nd Jan 2022 10:51


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11163921)
But overall the general consensus is that while calls for assistance were up, actual attempts at suicide were no more than usual.

Not according to Kids Helpline for Victorian teenagers. This is the headline for the article I linked, actual numbers can be found within the article:

Attempted suicide rates among Victorian teenagers soar by 184 per cent in past six months, Kids Helpline reveals


43Inches 2nd Jan 2022 10:56

One is a sensationalised news article, the one I provided is actual records and statistical data from Coroners, ambulance attendances etc.. 184% is way off the charts and in no way is anywhere near the data for both actual deaths and callouts for Victoria, which over the Pandemic has only recorded a increase of 1-2% for calls for suicidal intentions and a reduction in actual attempts. So either the ambulance and coroners are fudging data or the data used for the news article has misunderstood something.

Telecall help lines are also a huge magnet for APDs suffers to target to push an agenda without any attendance of the situation to verify an actual event. Where ambulance attends and records actual signs and such, and then issues a bill...If they are too late, especially children will go to the coroner.

Kids help line and Beyond blue and the rest all form a critical service for first point of contact, unfortunately a lot of calls still are spurious trouble makers. I'm sure if any of the operators thought it was seriously going to self harm then an ambulance will be called.

Jester64 2nd Jan 2022 10:59

I get that, but as you said there is a difference between attempted suicide and successful suicide. What Kids Helpline is referring to is the increase in attempted suicide amongst that particular demographic.

MickG0105 2nd Jan 2022 11:10


Originally Posted by Jester64 (Post 11163933)
Not according to Kids Helpline for Victorian teenagers. This is the headline for the article I linked, actual numbers can be found within the article:

Attempted suicide rates among Victorian teenagers soar by 184 per cent in past six months, Kids Helpline reveals


The problems with that particular report were addressed six months ago - https://www.pprune.org/australia-new...l#post11075660

43Inches 2nd Jan 2022 11:11

Sorry I should have said at the bottom of the data page I provided there is a next page selection where you can view ambulance call-out for ideation/attempts and actual self harm.

I have no doubt some will be casualties of these measures, others not, but the statistical line is basically no different and like we watch hospitalisations for Covid for how bad it is, these stats are also used by those in charge to assess lock down measures etc.... We will probably never know the reasons of each, its a sensitive topic for all involved, unless of course there is some sort of inquiry. NSW and Victorias different approach to lock-downs may be directly down to these figures.

MickG0105 2nd Jan 2022 13:15


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11163937)
Telecall help lines are also a huge magnet for APDs suffers to target to push an agenda without any attendance of the situation to verify an actual event.

What are trying to say here?


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11163937)
Kids help line and Beyond blue and the rest all form a critical service for first point of contact, unfortunately a lot of calls still are spurious trouble makers.

​​​​​​... a lot of calls still are spurious trouble makers. ??!! You're saying this based on what?

43Inches 2nd Jan 2022 20:32


​​​​​​... a lot of calls still are spurious trouble makers. ??!! You're saying this based on what?
They don't publish the data anymore as highlighting it causes more instances and copycats. Back a number of years ago KHL was going through some issues of needing more funding but some sources were saying it had as much as 1 in 3 calls were hoaxes. Point that came out was while there are a lot of crank calls, 2/3rds or more of calls were serious and real, meaning they do provide an essential first point of call for real sufferers.

Again as I said earlier these lines provide an essential service, but going off call rates to them without actual confirmation data that all cases are real is difficult to relate. I can imagine the lockdowns also were conducive to a lot of bored kids and mental cases willing to flood these lines with mess for cheap kicks. With 000 the hoaxes are logged with severe penalties, yet they still occur at regular intervals, the data from Ambulance and Police attendance to a scene or event is well documented so reliable information to gather rates from.

You have to also remember that KHL 'Duty of care interventions' are just the information being passed onto Ambulance and Police for further investigation and possible attendance, then it will obviously be added to those services data.

turbantime 2nd Jan 2022 22:33

One for you SOPS, as alluded to in my post.
https://www.news.com.au/world/corona...8b57fd0e159fdb


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