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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

dr dre 23rd Dec 2021 08:50


Originally Posted by StudentInDebt (Post 11159944)
what about the people who spend weeks in ICU units, go on to develop long-COVID or die?

Well the vast, vast majority of people in ICUs are unvaccinated.

We’ve now reached a point where Australia’s high vaccination levels will mostly keep ICUs from overflowing. Every leader is now pretty much abandoning those who’ve chosen to not take a vaccine. And Australia has, through want of getting out of lockdowns or mandates, one of the highest vaxxed adult populations.

Those who die of Covid are now matching standard excess mortality, which means they’re not causing a massive increase in death. Check out this graph of UK excess mortality for instance:

Excess Mortality in England

Spikes around early 2020 and winter 20/21 but now more in line with expected numbers. Basically the populations vulnerable to influenza now the ones vulnerable to Covid (so make sure they’re vaccinated and avoid contact if contagious please).

The prevalence of long Covid after vaccination is still unknown, however it’s probably safe to say you’re less likely to get symptoms, the symptoms will probably be mild, and the time they persist for measured in weeks rather than months. Here’s a good article to read:

Do vaccines reduce your risk of long COVID? Here's what we know so far - ABC News

SOPS 23rd Dec 2021 09:08


Originally Posted by Transition Layer (Post 11159927)
Yep…I would hate for fully vaccinated healthy people to get a runny nose and sore throat. I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night.

I am lost for words.

Buster Hyman 23rd Dec 2021 09:26


Originally Posted by Ladloy (Post 11159833)
Labor also agrees with everything the LNP has done on the Chinese policy level.

Like signing up for the CCP's Belt & Road debt trap?

StudentInDebt 23rd Dec 2021 09:27


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 11159953)
Well the vast, vast majority of people in ICUs are unvaccinated.

We’ve now reached a point where Australia’s high vaccination levels will mostly keep ICUs from overflowing. Every leader is now pretty much abandoning those who’ve chosen to not take a vaccine. And Australia has, through want of getting out of lockdowns or mandates, one of the highest vaxxed adult populations.

Those who die of Covid are now matching standard excess mortality, which means they’re not causing a massive increase in death. Check out this graph of UK excess mortality for instance:

Excess Mortality in England

Spikes around early 2020 and winter 20/21 but now more in line with expected numbers. Basically the populations vulnerable to influenza now the ones vulnerable to Covid (so make sure they’re vaccinated and avoid contact if contagious please).

The prevalence of long Covid after vaccination is still unknown, however it’s probably safe to say you’re less likely to get symptoms, the symptoms will probably be mild, and the time they persist for measured in weeks rather than months. Here’s a good article to read:

Do vaccines reduce your risk of long COVID? Here's what we know so far - ABC News

People are still people, regardless of how misguided or stupid they may be. I for one do not believe this is worthy of minimising the impact of their death or suffering regardless of their impact on my career or family life.

Transition Layer 23rd Dec 2021 09:30


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11159966)
I am lost for words.

That’s a first

NumptyAussie 23rd Dec 2021 09:30


Originally Posted by Transition Layer (Post 11159927)
Yep…I would hate for fully vaccinated healthy people to get a runny nose and sore throat. I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night.

Well, I would not wish ill on anyone.

dr dre 23rd Dec 2021 09:50


Originally Posted by StudentInDebt (Post 11159979)
People are still people, regardless of how misguided or stupid they may be. I for one do not believe this is worthy of minimising the impact of their death or suffering regardless of their impact on my career or family life.

In terms of death numbers? Yeah it’s a tragedy, but we lost something like 1000-3000 Australians per year from Influenza and Pneumonia, media age 88, most years and didn’t fuss too much.

By all accounts vaccines will keep the Covid toll much lower than that. There’s not a single serious scientist who thinks Covid will be eliminated, just become endemic, so it will remain but not cause a large public health issue.

Transition Layer 23rd Dec 2021 10:12


Originally Posted by NumptyAussie (Post 11159982)
Well, I would not wish ill on anyone.

Nor would I, and that’s not what I said. I was referring to the fact that the sooner WA lives with covid the better, and if that means an out break now they so be it. It can’t remain closed off forever despite what people like SOPS would like. The Premier has already praised the very high vaccination rate and how it puts us in a good position (no mention of his poorly run Health System though).

News from the Imperial College today has Omicron 40-45% less likely to result in hospitalisation, so my comment about runny noses seems pretty appropriate. We aren’t talking about the initial Alpha strain, wiping out hordes of unvaccinated elderly in nursing homes. We are dealing with a milder strain in a highly vaccinated population. Chalk and cheese, so don’t fear the C!

NumptyAussie 23rd Dec 2021 10:21


Originally Posted by Transition Layer (Post 11160008)
Nor would I, and that’s not what I said.

"WA may well be locked down by New Years Eve once this spreads during Xmas gatherings. Bring it on,"

Aye...

morno 23rd Dec 2021 10:28


Originally Posted by StudentInDebt (Post 11159944)
what about the people who spend weeks in ICU units, go on to develop long-COVID or die?

Would you prefer to keep hiding under the blankets for years?

It’s inevitable that people will die, but they already do every year with the flu.

SOPS 23rd Dec 2021 10:28


Originally Posted by Transition Layer (Post 11160008)
Nor would I, and that’s not what I said. I was referring to the fact that the sooner WA lives with covid the better, and if that means an out break now they so be it. It can’t remain closed off forever despite what people like SOPS would like. The Premier has already praised the very high vaccination rate and how it puts us in a good position (no mention of his poorly run Health System though).

News from the Imperial College today has Omicron 40-45% less likely to result in hospitalisation, so my comment about runny noses seems pretty appropriate. We aren’t talking about the initial Alpha strain, wiping out hordes of unvaccinated elderly in nursing homes. We are dealing with a milder strain in a highly vaccinated population. Chalk and cheese, so don’t fear the C!

Keep it up mate. I have just nursed my wife through cancer in the last year. She is going well., fully vaxed.. but with a highly compromised immune system. But I’m sure she will just be a statistic in your dream to fly a shiny jet. There are many sides to this story.

Transition Layer 23rd Dec 2021 10:29


Originally Posted by NumptyAussie (Post 11160015)
"WA may well be locked down by New Years Eve once this spreads during Xmas gatherings. Bring it on,"

Aye...

See above…spread equals reality for WA and the end of the “blissful bubble”.

Transition Layer 23rd Dec 2021 10:34


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11160018)
Keep it up mate. I have just nursed my wife through cancer in the last year. She is going well., fully vaxed.. but with a highly compromised immune system. But I’m sure she will just be a statistic in your dream to fly a shiny jet. There are many sides to this story.

Sure “mate”, let’s just stay closed forever to protect your wife and thousands others like her. That will fix the problem!

I wish her all the best but please, the link between your wife’s health and the careers of Pilots is a little tenuous don’t you think?

Ladloy 23rd Dec 2021 11:11


Originally Posted by Buster Hyman (Post 11159976)
Like signing up for the CCP's Belt & Road debt trap?

Federal Labor isn't the same as Victorian Labor. The same can be said for state and federal LNP.

JJ 789 23rd Dec 2021 13:36


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11160018)
Keep it up mate. I have just nursed my wife through cancer in the last year. She is going well., fully vaxed.. but with a highly compromised immune system. But I’m sure she will just be a statistic in your dream to fly a shiny jet. There are many sides to this story.

As unfortunate as your wife's situation is, the vast majority of us shouldn't be punished and be able to get on with living our lives.

Doors Off 23rd Dec 2021 13:41

Well, so good to read (mostly) some open debate, without clickbait and (in the main) vitriol amongst participants. That is a wonderful thing.

Reading through the comments above, there appears to be a consistent disappointment in the two main coalitions (Green/Labor and LNP). The similarities between said “options” is startling! How do we affect change? Vote Independent I guess.

We live in an amazing country and democratically, we have the opportunity to shape the free money people in the Government, to actually earn said money. Let us consider our votes for real policy next year.

Ladloy 23rd Dec 2021 20:42


Originally Posted by Doors Off (Post 11160098)
Well, so good to read (mostly) some open debate, without clickbait and (in the main) vitriol amongst participants. That is a wonderful thing.

Reading through the comments above, there appears to be a consistent disappointment in the two main coalitions (Green/Labor and LNP). The similarities between said “options” is startling! How do we affect change? Vote Independent I guess.

We live in an amazing country and democratically, we have the opportunity to shape the free money people in the Government, to actually earn said money. Let us consider our votes for real policy next year.

Green and Labor are far from a coalition, but media likes to portray them as such.

This is a great video on why a hung parliament is a good thing for democracy. Disclaimer: It's a left leaning youtube channel

StudentInDebt 23rd Dec 2021 21:11


Originally Posted by morno (Post 11160017)
Would you prefer to keep hiding under the blankets for years?

It’s inevitable that people will die, but they already do every year with the flu.

No, I was writing in response to what I believed to be a rather callous attitude towards what COVID represents for those who don’t just get a cold from it. If it’s inevitable that people die, why do we bother with medicine an public health measures at all?

Icarus2001 23rd Dec 2021 22:29

Just to be clear the survival rate is somewhere between 98% and 98.7%.
The flu is around 99.5% survival rate.
The aged and the unhealthy are over represented in the fatalities.

43Inches 23rd Dec 2021 22:52


The flu is around 99.5% survival rate.
Make that 99.9%, CDC data on the 2018-2019 flu season was 28,000 deaths vs 29,000,000 symptomatic cases (asymptotic cases are not tested for in flu). Flu causes 3-4 deaths per 100,000 population in the USA on average.

Covid in the US is running at 98.4% survival rate on all suspected cases including asymptotic. So if you changed that to vs symptomatic cases only the number could easily be 95% or such. Covid is running at 250 deaths per 100,000 population in the US. Most other western nations with high covid have similar data.

PS I use the US as an example and the UK at times as they have rules that dispel a lot of the myths, such as death count from flu or covid must be 'due' to covid, not died with covid etc... It has to be listed as the actual cause of death and not as a sub item.

Also you don't have to be 'unhealthy' to die from covid, any condition that already stresses the heart or lungs will complicate covid recovery. Diabetics and asthmatics are highly susceptible to it, whether from being unfit, or just carrying the condition. Certain diabetics are due to unhealthy lifestyle, a lot are not by choice at all, and ageing is not a choice either, neither is asthma.


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