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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

Buster Hyman 21st Jun 2020 12:57

Happy to pile in on China Dan, but it appears to be Family transmission. The BLM protests have not contributed to the spike...yet.

Of those new cases, one is a close contact of a Keilor Downs family, taking the total number linked to that outbreak to 11 spread across nine households. Another new case is linked to a Coburg family, taking that outbreak to 14, and three are linked to the Stamford Plaza Hotel, bringing that outbreak to 13.

thisishardtochoose 21st Jun 2020 13:05


Originally Posted by Buster Hyman (Post 10816844)
Happy to pile in on China Dan, but it appears to be Family transmission. The BLM protests have not contributed to the spike...yet.

Keilor Downs family has been attending work/family gatherings and sending their kids to school despite testing positive to covid. But yes let's just blame the BLM protesters :ugh:

ozbiggles 21st Jun 2020 13:16

BLM protestors have a noble cause, but they have no idea what the outcome of the public gathering could do or will do, endangering the very people they were seeking to protect. As these family community transmission show this thing will bolt out of the gates if given the opportunity. The implication will be borders shut down longer and aviation held back even longer. It was a stupid ideological thing to do and damaged their cause and that of getting the country and aviation going.

dr dre 21st Jun 2020 13:48

Three weeks after they began, it looks like the protests in the US have NOT caused an increase in COVID infections:

Thereís No Evidence That Protests Have Caused a Coronavirus Surge

clark y 21st Jun 2020 19:32

The big problem with Victoria has been the inconsistencies with the rules from day one.
Ignoring the travelling and concentrating on the social/gathering aspects.
Firstly we are locked down with some fairly strict rules including things like "essential shopping only". OK, we have to beat this virus yet Bunnings not restricted? It should have been closed to non-ABN holders. This caused a few to question the process.
Now we are having weekly demonstrations. The first was deemed illegal and participants told not to go. The police stated that enforcing it was "not feasible". 3x $1600 fines were issued at a later date. The Victorian government has the ability to fine individuals up to $20,000 due to state of emergency powers etc. Who cares that the demonstrators washed their hands-should do it anyway. As for masks, protestors actually would love that- it's a chance to hide if it gets ugly. It's interesting seeing public areas and noting the difference in ratios of mask wearers compared to these events.
I understand the Victorian government didn't want a fight like the US but by doing nothing has undermined it's population's will to bother. Who cares whether there is an outbreak stemming from this or not? If one does occur we can all shout "told you so", if it doesn't, great we've dodged a bullet. The fact that the government demands and threatens daily yet allows certain activities justs creates divide. Why should I bother staying home, no-one else does.
Lock-down fatigue is now becoming very real, people are frustrated and now we are being threatened with door to door visits and the locking down of suburbs.




rmm 21st Jun 2020 22:57


Originally Posted by thisishardtochoose (Post 10816851)
Keilor Downs family has been attending work/family gatherings and sending their kids to school despite testing positive to covid. :ugh:

Shouldn't they be rounding them up and placing them in a secure hotel like returned travelers?

normanton 21st Jun 2020 22:58


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10816879)
Three weeks after they began, it looks like the protests in the US have NOT caused an increase in COVID infections:

There’s No Evidence That Protests Have Caused a Coronavirus Surge

Thats like claiming the virus doesn't spread on aircraft. Lol.


Originally Posted by clark y (Post 10817154)
Lock-down fatigue is now becoming very real, people are frustrated and now we are being threatened with door to door visits and the locking down of suburbs.

Good. Because they are ****ing it for the rest of us. They should all be wound and up placed in an isolation hotel.

exfocx 21st Jun 2020 23:49


Originally Posted by ozbiggles (Post 10816854)
BLM protestors have a noble cause, but they have no idea what the outcome of the public gathering could do or will do, endangering the very people they were seeking to protect. As these family community transmission show this thing will bolt out of the gates if given the opportunity. The implication will be borders shut down longer and aviation held back even longer. It was a stupid ideological thing to do and damaged their cause and that of getting the country and aviation going.


Just listened to the Fed Gov CMO on ABC RN and his concern with the BLM protests wasn't actually transmissions, but that it would move other people to say stuff it, if they can we can!

ozbiggles 22nd Jun 2020 00:03

I agree with that too ex. It is a discipline thing and whether people agree or disagree with how we got to where we are I think we all agree if we drop the ball now on treating Covid as the threat it is, then it will just sux (gave up trying to think of a clever word for it). That will be another hit to the aviation world.

Green.Dot 22nd Jun 2020 00:20


Originally Posted by exfocx (Post 10817284)
Just listened to the Fed Gov CMO on ABC RN and his concern with the BLM protests wasn't actually transmissions, but that it would move other people to say stuff it, if they can we can!

Simple solution- those who canít adhere to the rules get their welfare (JobKeeper/JobSeeker/dole/whatever) terminated for 3 months. Reoffend- make it 12. Fines donít work, we all know they will never get paid.

exfocx 22nd Jun 2020 01:52


Originally Posted by Green.Dot (Post 10817291)
Simple solution- those who can’t adhere to the rules get their welfare (JobKeeper/JobSeeker/dole/whatever) terminated for 3 months. Reoffend- make it 12. Fines don’t work, we all know they will never get paid.


Sorry, but I don't agree with that view point and I don't agree with the large % of the community who view a protest such as BLM (inequality etc) as the same as a gathering at the footy or a concert etc. These protests are bloody small in comparison and are held in limited numbers, not the same as 30 odd major sporting events (AFL, NRL, A-League, NBL,ANL, night clubs, pubs and w/end sport club gatherings etc,where the total numbers would likely be over 1/2 mil pw, EVERY week.

thisishardtochoose 22nd Jun 2020 02:58


Originally Posted by rmm (Post 10817256)
Shouldn't they be rounding them up and placing them in a secure hotel like returned travelers?

ah you would hope so, but I don't think the taxpayers would like to foot the bill for someone else's incompetence

ozbiggles 22nd Jun 2020 03:16

Why not? We have to foot the bill for that all the time!

ex I understand why the BLM is such a big event but the point is there are no crowds at the footy, cricket, soccer etc etc because we were told they are the rules to keep as many people as safe as possible. The BLM protestors were told that and marched anyway. One of the main reasons Aus and NZ shutdown so hard was to protect the indigenous population who were thought to be most at risk if this pandemic took hold in those countries. It strikes me as worse than ironic. The family transmissions we are now seeing out of Victoria and the effect that will now occur because of that shows the immaturity of their decision to march (maybe not as reckless as a political rally held indoors) It will directly effect aviation in this country getting back on its feet (it is after all an aviation site).

machtuk 22nd Jun 2020 05:00

We are such a weak, divided and corrupt nation, these restrictions etc where never going to work effectively long term! Get used to living in a country that flounders from one cock up to another!

Green.Dot 22nd Jun 2020 05:51


Originally Posted by exfocx (Post 10817323)
These protests are bloody small in comparison and are held in limited numbers, not the same as 30 odd major sporting events (AFL, NRL, A-League, NBL,ANL, night clubs, pubs and w/end sport club gatherings etc,where the total numbers would likely be over 1/2 mil pw, EVERY week.

Sorry what large sporting crowds are you referring to? Biggest one I have heard of was 2000 in Adelaide a week or so ago. And I wasnít specifically referring to BLM, more so people who have knowingly tested positive and then think itís a good idea to go to a family BBQ or go to work.

But thatís ok, letís just keep breaking the law and getting away with it- seems to be the Australian way!

exfocx 22nd Jun 2020 09:54


Originally Posted by Green.Dot (Post 10817371)
Sorry what large sporting crowds are you referring to? Biggest one I have heard of was 2000 in Adelaide a week or so ago. And I wasnít specifically referring to BLM, more so people who have knowingly tested positive and then think itís a good idea to go to a family BBQ or go to work.

But thatís ok, letís just keep breaking the law and getting away with it- seems to be the Australian way!


Green.Dot, (Simple solution- those who canít adhere to the rules get their welfare (JobKeeper/JobSeeker/dole/whatever) terminated for 3 months.) Sorry, took your comment to be directed broadly against those who break the rules. My comments are in relation to people complaining that if BLM (etc) protests are okay then so is their ability to socialise like the old days (shit, hope it doesn't become a reality to view previous norms like that!).

Laws came be made to be whatever the gov of the day wants. QLD outlawed protest marches without a permit in the 70s & 80s (and Joh said none would be given!), so sometimes laws were made to be broken, and no I think those idiots moving around when they have been quarantined isn't an exception, though obviously imo protests are different.

missy 22nd Jun 2020 12:14


Originally Posted by rmm (Post 10817256)
Shouldn't they be rounding them up and placing them in a secure hotel like returned travelers?

Maybe, but apparently these "secure" hotels aren't that secure, not policed by the defence forces and many travellers have "checked out" prior to the 14 days quarantine period

thisishardtochoose 22nd Jun 2020 12:30


Originally Posted by missy (Post 10817626)
many travellers have "checked out" prior to the 14 days quarantine period

do you have a source regarding this?

Stickshift3000 23rd Jun 2020 02:09

The hotels I worked in as an authorised officer that housed quarantined travellers were very secure. Very little chance of getting out, let alone without being seen and caught.

The potential penalty for an individual not following the mandatory quarantine direction for overseas arrivals is nearly $20,000 (120 penalty units). All in quarantine are made ware of this on arrival.

rmm 23rd Jun 2020 02:37


Originally Posted by missy (Post 10817626)
Maybe, but apparently these "secure" hotels aren't that secure

It would appear from media reports that the contract security guards are more the issue, not the detained guests.

benttrees 23rd Jun 2020 04:02

The Queensland government, or QIC, has agreed that:
ďboth Bain Capital and Cyrus Capital Partners - the auction's two final bidders - cut deals with the Queensland government's representatives to keep the airline based in Brisbane in return for about $200 million in benefits.Ē


If Queensland arenít going to open their borders, this would appear to be a poor investment.

Chris2303 23rd Jun 2020 05:10

https://australianaviation.com.au/20...paign=23062020

"AUSTRALIAíS BORDER TO STAY SHUT UNTIL VACCINE FOUND, HINTS MINISTER"



brokenagain 23rd Jun 2020 05:20

And if no vaccine is found?

This is all getting ridiculous. When did ‘flatten the curve’ change to eradication? We can’t live in a bubble forever. At some point the government is going to have to have an acceptable level of risk. It’ll be no good if we eradicate coronavirus in a year or two but we’re living in our cars surviving off food stamps. The chance of most Australians catching it let alone dying from it are minute, yet the chances of ending up in major economic hardship is significant due to the destruction of not only our industry but many others.

TT738 23rd Jun 2020 06:25


Originally Posted by brokenagain (Post 10818222)
And if no vaccine is found?

This is all getting ridiculous. When did Ďflatten the curveí change to eradication? We canít live in a bubble forever. At some point the government is going to have to have an acceptable level of risk. Itíll be no good if we eradicate coronavirus in a year or two but weíre living in our cars surviving off food stamps. The chance of most Australians catching it let alone dying from it are minute, yet the chances of ending up in major economic hardship is significant due to the destruction of not only our industry but many others.

& yet NYC is now open for business & UK relaxing restrictions. Many are not taking any notice of social distancing after the protests.

This can't go on. Politicians have to be very careful now.

ozbiggles 23rd Jun 2020 07:47

I think it is pretty clear, other than the bubble the international borders will not be open until in my guess late next year best case. The reaction to even a small at this stage breakout in Victoria and everything the feds say I present as evidence. My guess is also based on Qantas, AirNZ and most likely VA parking their big jets in the desert now. You don’t do that for anything less than 6 months. I would love to see evidence against that but I see none or a very least an overwhelming amount saying it’s all a score of zero ( not yet competent) for just about anything EDTO.

dolphi 23rd Jun 2020 07:55

Not letting Australians leave the country in my opinion is quite disturbing. It feels to me like we're living in a communist country. I understand that we can't go travelling and return to Australia like nothing happened but if they can put measures in place for international students, they can put measure in place for Australians wishing to travel. There are many options!

ElZilcho 23rd Jun 2020 08:05


Originally Posted by brokenagain (Post 10818222)
And if no vaccine is found?

This is all getting ridiculous. When did ‘flatten the curve’ change to eradication? We can’t live in a bubble forever. At some point the government is going to have to have an acceptable level of risk. It’ll be no good if we eradicate coronavirus in a year or two but we’re living in our cars surviving off food stamps. The chance of most Australians catching it let alone dying from it are minute, yet the chances of ending up in major economic hardship is significant due to the destruction of not only our industry but many others.

For us in NZ, it changed while we were all in lockdown. We were sold on flattening the curve, the overnight it changed to Eradication. Now every time someone tests positive while in border quarantine it’s national news (admittedly the boffins did screw up letting people out un tested).

With the election approaching (on both sides of the Tasman I believe) those in charge will continue to do what’s popular. For us, that means saint Jacinda will continue to make serious faces on TV and preach about the wellbeing of NZ citizens... until the money runs out of course, but she’ll probably be re-elected by then.

Bodie1 23rd Jun 2020 08:22


until the money runs out of course
Just print more money.

currawong 23rd Jun 2020 08:44


Originally Posted by Stickshift3000 (Post 10818185)
The hotels I worked in as an authorised officer that housed quarantined travellers were very secure. Very little chance of getting out, let alone without being seen and caught.

The potential penalty for an individual not following the mandatory quarantine direction for overseas arrivals is nearly $20,000 (120 penalty units). All in quarantine are made ware of this on arrival.

Indeed. But not before this individual broke quarantine several times and used public transport while doing so.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-...hotel/12149908

As for flattening the curve versus eradication?

Not that long ago flattening the curve was the best we dared hope for.

Eradication may just be possible short/ medium term for some nations.

galdian 23rd Jun 2020 11:29


Originally Posted by Bodie1 (Post 10818322)

Just print more money.



If you're going to make smartarse/moronic comments then at least use emoji's or else far too many will take you seriously, I for one have no doubt you were aiming for humour. :ok:

You were - weren't you....:eek:

See what I did there - observation and rectification all tied up in a neat little bow! :p:p:p

Cheers

Bodie1 23rd Jun 2020 12:16

galdian, who/how is this all to be paid for? Is the magic money fairy stumping up? It's all well and good to say 'we can't put the economy ahead of lives' but the thought process that some people have that eradication will ever be achieved defies belief.

There is no plan. If the solution to Victoria's spike in cases is to re-lock down every time there's a spike? Well, how long will that go on? Years? Decades? WA, QLD, SA and TAS will all experience new cases at some point, what are they going to do?

I'm interstate for work. I just cancelled a flight to VIC because heading down there and back here will now see me in for a 3rd two week isolation period. I'm just one person. How many of that massive sale of Jetstar fares will get cancelled and re-scheduled? And this is just one segment of the economy that is dealing with ridiculous uncertainty.

The economy will not be able to pay for this for a whole lot longer. The only solution is to..............print more money ;) (there's your emoticon)

Green.Dot 23rd Jun 2020 20:47


Originally Posted by Bodie1 (Post 10818566)

There is no plan. If the solution to Victoria's spike in cases is to re-lock down every time there's a spike? Well, how long will that go on? Years? Decades? WA, QLD, SA and TAS will all experience new cases at some point, what are they going to do?

100% agree. What is the plan going forward? The goal posts certainly appear to have been moved to eradication. It wonít succeed, unless those in power are happy to let their grandkids live in poverty for the rest of their lives

Ragnor 23rd Jun 2020 20:51

No link link provided yet, But, EU is considering closing all their borders to Americans. If Australia truly wants eradication all international flights need to be turned back and stooped from coming. Seeing what happened in Victoria with hotel isolation, outbreaks can still occur. .

73to91 23rd Jun 2020 21:44

What I cannot get my head around is why there have been international pax flights into Oz. Who are the Australians returning home?

Surely most intelligent Australians got home to Australia when they could have and yet they are still coming in.

This link https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infect...s/flights.aspx
shows arrival dates from Apr 1st into Sydney.

morno 23rd Jun 2020 23:03


Originally Posted by 73to91 (Post 10818959)
What I cannot get my head around is why there have been international pax flights into Oz. Who are the Australians returning home?

Surely most intelligent Australians got home to Australia when they could have and yet they are still coming in.

This link https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infect...s/flights.aspx
shows arrival dates from Apr 1st into Sydney.

People actually do work overseas. God forbid they continue to do so :ugh:

galdian 24th Jun 2020 00:36

Bodie

Apology for maybe bad choice of words, just having some fun. ;)

On a previous thread I had a vigorous discussion when the $60Billion error was discovered that we had "saved" that money, others felt it was there to be spent.

Just seen another person has died in Vic, total 103 nationwide. I would also note that a fair few others also died - cancer, flu, heart attacks....whatever. But we don't worry about them.

The agenda is being controlled by individuals who's mindset has changed from containment to eradication - and this is accepted and tolerated, every day we aren't getting back to "normal" is another death by a thousand cuts to the economy.

Also the two states huffing and puffing the most are Labor - the party generally with the least care about money and the greatest faith it grows on trees or left at the bottom of the garden by the money fairies.

My only thought is maybe ScoMo should clearly point out the federal government will happily assist with funding to the states - but not unreasonably primarily to the states that are helping themselves and the rest of Australia to move forward.


Bend alot 24th Jun 2020 06:32

Most states and territories have been able to make harsh decisions to bring the virus to a contained and controlled position, but not all states.

When this can not be controlled (including compliance) when cluster numbers and cases are low - what possibility will these states have with multiple large clusters and high case numbers.

I am not a believer in giving everyone "participation awards" and it is simple to over fly Victoria, at least till they get a C- for control and containment.

Bodie1 24th Jun 2020 10:44


Apology for maybe bad choice of words, just having some fun.
No apology required mate, I know you were jiving but it was a good segue for me ;)

thisishardtochoose 24th Jun 2020 10:53


Originally Posted by stickshaken (Post 10819116)
The problem is the borders internationally have never ever been closed from day dot, it is a great misconception that Australians believe our borders are closed.

You only have to look at Flightaware to see so many internationals arrivals and departures continuing into and out of Australia. Especially from high risk countries.

Most if not all of these said flights are Cargo Only and with some of them being repatriation flights. So yes our borders are closed to tourists.

Ragnor 25th Jun 2020 20:41

What is the problem with Daniel Andrews?! This guy is so incompetent. He has sent the military away leaving only 150 thinking he has it under control.


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