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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

601 27th Jul 2021 13:47


I think we’re just buying time to get vaccines in arms at this point.
Gee it has taken a while for that fact to sink in.
That has been the point from day one.

Fuel-Off 27th Jul 2021 14:08


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11085682)
I say again, she has to lock down hard. She has to bring in the Army to the ‘communities’ that come to Australia, but don’t ‘ understand’ except when applying to Centrelink . Its now or never.

Problem is, with no Jobkeeper people have to work. People in these 'communities' as you put it SOPS (nice privileged-white-man-dog-whistle by the way), have to go out to work and earn a crust to feed their families. Either die of starvation or die of COVID, it's a conundrum that many all over the world have had to face hence why locking down hasn't stopped the spread of this thing. People have to get out to live.

Gladys is screaming for Jobkeeper to come back seeing as Sydney is looking at another four weeks of this. Is Canberra going to listen? SloMo certainly would look after his own backyard in Sydney if he could, but the optics of playing favourites would royally screw him politically (like he isn't screwed enough already).

Nulli Secundus 27th Jul 2021 14:31

The NSW Premier can urge, wish, strongly encourage etc.all she likes but this situation, now, no longer affords that degree of latitude. It never actually did but given she waited too long and the action she took effectively lagged the outbreak's expansion 'by one local government area/ limo driver' she will now in my view exacerbate the problem in so far as public health is concerned. It takes a command style approach to pull together a team and thereafter a statewide community that can hold out for the relatively few weeks needed to contain this outbreak. She isn't that leader.

There are occasions particularly in politics where spin, political capital, charisma and just plain likeability get a leader out of a bind. Often, rightly or wrongly, a leader can simply 'manage' their way out of a crisis. You can't manage or message your way out of this. The facts don't lie....... Delta covid takes lives across a wider demographic, its more virulent than the Alpha, Beta or Gamma variants, it does have a very long lasting debilitating effect i.e long covid, and vaccines are still months away before all of greater Sydney has two doses.

In aviation, particularly in say the area of EP's we don't softly encourage with words like 'please', 'could you just', 'may I remind everyone' etc. because we know assertiveness saves lives. It gets the best results and whilst at the time some may say its too harsh, to not take that course is failing to properly care for those in your charge. To ease conditions whilst cases and infections are booming is not only fool hardy but clearly a political move. Those calling for a proper, thorough lockdown of all but the most essential of services are nowhere near as vocal or prominent in their public opposition as those who argue that maintaining economic activity should be paramount. She believes right now that if she manages the push back from even just a small section of the community, that will be all it takes to secure the next election.

Icarus2001 27th Jul 2021 15:15


The facts don't lie....... Delta covid takes lives across a wider demographic, its more virulent than the Alpha, Beta or Gamma variants,
Please tell us the facts.
How many lives has Delta taken in Australia this year?

Xeptu 27th Jul 2021 16:57


Originally Posted by ruprecht (Post 11085673)
Maybe, but it’s weeks with a lockdown rather than weeks without one. It’s about minimizing damage at this point. I agree it doesn’t look good though.

Eventually though, we will have to examine the costs of the lockdown vs lives saved (or deaths postponed) - but we are a long way from that point.

I think her lockdown will have zero effect, if you can call it a lockdown at all. If it drags out into months, instead of a ring of steel around Sydney as suggested, you'll end up with entire regions within NSW, nearer the surrounding state borders that will want to declare themselves an uninfected quarantine region. Off limits to your own State.

blubak 27th Jul 2021 21:24


Originally Posted by Nulli Secundus (Post 11085720)
The NSW Premier can urge, wish, strongly encourage etc.all she likes but this situation, now, no longer affords that degree of latitude. It never actually did but given she waited too long and the action she took effectively lagged the outbreak's expansion 'by one local government area/ limo driver' she will now in my view exacerbate the problem in so far as public health is concerned. It takes a command style approach to pull together a team and thereafter a statewide community that can hold out for the relatively few weeks needed to contain this outbreak. She isn't that leader.

There are occasions particularly in politics where spin, political capital, charisma and just plain likeability get a leader out of a bind. Often, rightly or wrongly, a leader can simply 'manage' their way out of a crisis. You can't manage or message your way out of this. The facts don't lie....... Delta covid takes lives across a wider demographic, its more virulent than the Alpha, Beta or Gamma variants, it does have a very long lasting debilitating effect i.e long covid, and vaccines are still months away before all of greater Sydney has two doses.

In aviation, particularly in say the area of EP's we don't softly encourage with words like 'please', 'could you just', 'may I remind everyone' etc. because we know assertiveness saves lives. It gets the best results and whilst at the time some may say its too harsh, to not take that course is failing to properly care for those in your charge. To ease conditions whilst cases and infections are booming is not only fool hardy but clearly a political move. Those calling for a proper, thorough lockdown of all but the most essential of services are nowhere near as vocal or prominent in their public opposition as those who argue that maintaining economic activity should be paramount. She believes right now that if she manages the push back from even just a small section of the community, that will be all it takes to secure the next election.

In response to where you mention about softly encouraging people i have to agree.
I watched part of glayds's presser yesterday & as you say she seems to be trying to be nice all the time whereas with the vic & sa pressers the information being passed to the public is in reality telling us what has to be done.
Many people hate andrews but at least he comes across as a strong leader & in sa the cho nicola spurrier is so switched on(& so she should be).
I dont care what political party they represent,what we need is to get this under control for the good of the whole country.
Not important right now to play politics.

WingNut60 27th Jul 2021 21:53


Originally Posted by Icarus2001 (Post 11085741)
Please tell us the facts.
How many lives has Delta taken in Australia this year?

Not many. But that limited number has been achieved despite controls being in place.
Take the controls away, as ineffective as they may be, and the numbers would be very different.
Please refer Y2020 USA.

Being the cynic that I am, I am starting to wonder whether Beryl isn't silently playing for an end-game that goes "well this is not working, we might as well just open it all up"?
After all, that would fit right in with her earlier pronouncements.

SHVC 27th Jul 2021 22:09

If this national cabinet is to achieve anything at all because it has not yet. The conversation with the medical experts not premiers who want to appease ppl with the biggest opinion for their vote, is what is the END GAME! what do they want exactly. U.K latest data still has what I think is a low death rate for the population and comparative to other illness that kill. With a falling positive rate at 30.8% overtime the death rate will fall with a lower infectious rate if the U.K trends continue. We cant especially in NSW lockdown for zero cases and have 80% vax rate we don't have that time as we watch the rest of the world open up. .



MickG0105 27th Jul 2021 23:18


Originally Posted by Icarus2001 (Post 11085741)
Please tell us the facts.
How many lives has Delta taken in Australia this year?

Assuming all the deaths in New South Wales since 10 July are related to the delta-variant, most likely 12 so far.

MickG0105 27th Jul 2021 23:21


Originally Posted by ruprecht (Post 11085690)
The Army isn’t getting involved.

It’s not The Day of The Triffids…

A literary/cultural reference for readers of certain age.

Foxxster 27th Jul 2021 23:21

The 80% fully vaccinated rate is absurd. Have a look at current rates around the world. If Gladys wants to wait to get to 80% fully vaccinated before we can stop restrictions and get back to any form of normality then come back this time next year, or xmas 2022. It is bloody stupid and she needs to backtrack on it immediately. There will always be a proportion of people who will not get the vaccine, the denier type. Then you will have a large number of 18 to 35 year olds especially the 18 to 25 who won’t get it because covid doesn’t affect that age group.

a realistic number is around 65%. Which we can realistically get to around the end of this year. After you get to about that number, the rate plateaus right off. Progress is very slow.

Ladloy 27th Jul 2021 23:30


Originally Posted by Foxxster (Post 11085904)
Then you will have a large number of 18 to 35 year olds especially the 18 to 25 who won’t get it because covid doesn’t affect that age group.

That's a blatant lie

Foxxster 27th Jul 2021 23:37


Originally Posted by Ladloy (Post 11085907)
That's a blatant lie

is it… oh, so you are one of those pedantic people are you. How clever.

it affects that age group SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than other age groups and pales into insignificance compared to the risky nature of things that age group gets up to. Especially in Australia. Tell us all how many people in the 18 to 25 age group have died or been SERIOUSLY affected in Australia.

https://www.health.gov.au/resources/...-group-and-sex

Go away.

that is also the age group that thinks they are bullet proof…

mattyj 28th Jul 2021 00:01


The total deaths for each year were 143,473, 153,580 & 168,960 - averaging that gives 155,000 people dying each year.
even one death is one too many..we can’t rest until everyone lives forever

Icarus2001 28th Jul 2021 00:07


Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
Please tell us the facts.
How many lives has Delta taken in Australia this year?

Assuming all the deaths in New South Wales since 10 July are related to the delta-variant, most likely 12 so far.


Well there it is, twelve people. How many were close to death from other causes?
You guys need some perspective, how many people have died this year from flu, diabetes, car crashes, suicides, allergies?
This is a massive overreaction by the media and consequently the states.
Pity the casual wage earners with no income and the small businesses forced to close.

dr dre 28th Jul 2021 00:12


Originally Posted by Foxxster (Post 11085904)
Then you will have a large number of 18 to 35 year olds especially the 18 to 25 who won’t get it because covid doesn’t affect that age group.


Originally Posted by Ladloy (Post 11085907)
That's a blatant lie

Actually Ladloy has a point. Long term symptoms of Covid have been shown to persist in mild cases that didn’t require hospitalisation in younger people. This peer reviewed study from Norway explains:

We found that 52% (32/61) of home-isolated young adults, aged 16–30 years, had symptoms at 6 months, including loss of taste and/or smell (28%, 17/61), fatigue (21%, 13/61), dyspnea (13%, 8/61), impaired concentration (13%, 8/61) and memory problems (11%, 7/61).

Not as bad as ventilation or death but still significant, and certainly enough to say Covid does affect the younger age group.



Ladloy 28th Jul 2021 00:13


Originally Posted by Foxxster (Post 11085909)
is it… oh, so you are one of those pedantic people are you. How clever.

it affects that age group SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than other age groups and pales into insignificance compared to the risky nature of things that age group gets up to. Especially in Australia. Tell us all how many people in the 18 to 25 age group have died or been SERIOUSLY affected in Australia.

https://www.health.gov.au/resources/...-group-and-sex

Go away.

that is also the age group that thinks they are bullet proof…

Most of the workforce affected by lockdowns are in that age bracket as they take up most of the casualised positions in Australia. They have made a huge sacrifice in income to save the older generations. They will be wanting the vaccine to reduce the risk of another lockdown.

Foxxster 28th Jul 2021 00:15


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 11085921)
Actually Ladloy has a point. Long term symptoms of Covid have been shown to persist in mild cases that didn’t require hospitalisation in younger people. This peer reviewed study from Norway explains:

We found that 52% (32/61) of home-isolated young adults, aged 16–30 years, had symptoms at 6 months, including loss of taste and/or smell (28%, 17/61), fatigue (21%, 13/61), dyspnea (13%, 8/61), impaired concentration (13%, 8/61) and memory problems (11%, 7/61).

Not as bad as ventilation or death but still significant, and certainly enough to say Covid does affect the younger age group.


oooh, a whole 61 people.. ooooh

get a grip. And try and work out what I was getting at instead of being a pathetic pedantic twit like Ladloy.

dr dre 28th Jul 2021 00:19


Originally Posted by Icarus2001 (Post 11085920)
Well there it is, twelve people. How many were close to death from other causes?
You guys need some perspective, how many people have died this year from flu, diabetes, car crashes, suicides, allergies?



It’s only low because a strict approach from governments has kept it low.

If it wasn’t contained then you’d get a situation like the rest of the world over the last 18 months.

How do we know the pandemic would’ve caused more deaths per usual and not just ones that would’ve happened due heart disease, diabetes, the flu etc?

Excess Mortality.

It was far greater than the previous 5 year norm in basically every other nation, and nothing to suggest Australia wouldn’t have been similarly affected.

Excess mortality during the Coronavirus pandemic (COVID-19)


ruprecht 28th Jul 2021 00:25


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 11085924)

It’s only low because a strict approach from governments has kept it low.

If it wasn’t contained then you’d get a situation like the rest of the world over the last 18 months.

How do we know the pandemic would’ve caused more deaths per usual and not just ones that would’ve happened due heart disease, diabetes, the flu etc?

Excess Mortality.

It was far greater than the previous 5 year norm in basically every other nation, and nothing to suggest Australia wouldn’t have been similarly affected.

Excess mortality during the Coronavirus pandemic (COVID-19)

Well, if nothing else the 2020 figures will raise the average, making it easier to get 2021 below average. :8


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