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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

KRviator 1st Jul 2021 11:52

How many of those are interstate travellers though, as opposed to international? Particularly as McGoose is quite fond of his hard - sorry, "Controlled interstate" - border that requires Australian citizens to quarantine just to go see their grandparents because they happen to live in the same state as someone who sneezed a thousand miles away...

But I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment. You leave - you stay the phuck gone. You come in, you ain't going back out unless you refer to part 1.

There's more people wanting to come home now than there were at the start of the pandemic! WTF is up with that?!?

SOPS 1st Jul 2021 12:48

To be clear.. these are International arrivals. Some people have been in and out 8 times. It’s BS.

Torukmacto 1st Jul 2021 13:34

International arrivals won’t stop , just get vaccinated and get on with it . This is part of life now .

morno 1st Jul 2021 13:35


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11071510)
To be clear.. these are International arrivals. Some people have been in and out 8 times. It’s BS.

Because it’s complete and utter bullshit that they’re closed to start with.

Ohh that and the fact that maybe some people might have very legitimate reasons, ie. work.

Not everyone believes in a North Korean fortress style border.

morno 1st Jul 2021 13:38


Originally Posted by Foxxster (Post 11070762)
I sometimes wonder if I am talking to 8 year olds with a learning disability .

I think I have stated many many times that it cannot be done. It is up to you to provide the means of implementing and more importantly police the measures that YOU want to put in place.

as for being an expert. Well I have had that line before. About that charlatan, sorry demographer. You may want to refer to my post just above regarding that. The one with the link to the news article…

as for your role as a pilot. You have proven a complete lack of rationality, critical thinking and common sense.

I would think they are necessary requirements for most jobs that have people’s lives in their hands.

I give up, there’s no point arguing with a 7 year old.

And honestly, if you think flying is that hard that I need to be a psychologist and hold a doctorate, you’ve got serious issues buddy. It’s not that fecking hard. :rolleyes:

ruprecht 1st Jul 2021 13:49


Originally Posted by Torukmacto (Post 11071536)
International arrivals won’t stop , just get vaccinated and get on with it . This is part of life now .

Yup, what a shambles this is turning into. Scomo won’t provide a roadmap to recovery because then there is no reason to keep the LNP in power. So it’ll be “keeping you safe” and “envy of the world” until the election is called.

aviation_enthus 1st Jul 2021 14:05


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11071450)
It has just been stated that since this began.. there have been 51000 people through HQ in WA alone. Some have been through HQ as many as 8 times!!! This rubbish has to stop. You come in, you stay in. You leave now, you don’t come back. And that included ‘ sports people’ and such.

So by that logic the PM should stay out then? What about the various government ministers that need to travel?

What about Australians that live overseas and need to come home to deal with various family issues? They can’t go back overseas?

What about the various business owners in Australia that need to travel to keep their businesses running?

What about Australians that have family overseas they need to see?

I could go on and on, but I’m sure you get the point. The border CAN NEVER be closed. No country on earth functions that way. By your logic, all airlines should stop flying to Australia as well, good luck getting any of that Pfizer vaccine that’s so important now!

Australian citizens have a right to access their own country. It’s up to the government to create a safe and effective way for that to happen during a pandemic. Just shouting “shut the border!” is not safe and effective.

Do you get that point? ITS UP TO THE GOVERNMENT to create an effective quarantine system. To allow citizens to move around so the country continues to function.

If there actually was a safe and effective quarantine system (NOT hotel quarantine), that was user pays, with an associated cap on numbers, plus all the issues with international air travel at the moment, plus the risk of getting COVID (cause most Aussies aren’t vaccinated) and people STILL want to travel with all that hassle and risk, who are you to say “no”??

What happened to our liberal democracy? What happened to some level of personal responsibility when presented with the associated risks?

This is not something that will go away this year or probably the next, the influenza continued to spike every year well into the mid 1920’s after the original outbreak in 1919. Shutting the country off from the world for multiple years is not a suitable response.

Potsie Weber 1st Jul 2021 14:55

About time we incentivised vaccines in this country. There is enough vaccine to to cover the most at risk and at risk of causing breakouts.
  1. You cannot enter this country unless you are fully vaccinated
  2. You cannot leave this country until you are fully vaccinated
  3. You can travel freely within this country if you are fully vaccinated. You are not subject to state border restrictions or lockdowns.
  4. You can travel freely overseas to low risk countries from 31 Oct if you are fully vaccinated with quarantine on return for 1 test and then no quarantine but a follow up test in 7 days
  5. You can travel freely to low risk countries from 1Dec if you are fully vaccinated with no quarantine but a test on return.
  6. If you work in front line health, borders, emergency, international freight movements etc you get paid double time every single time you go to work for the next 6mths if you are fully vaccinated and you will receive a tax credit for the next 3yrs for your service to the greater good of the country.
Just watch how many would suddenly think the minimal risk of AZ side effects is acceptable when freedom and money comes into it.

All it needs is a plan!




Dannyboy39 1st Jul 2021 17:57

I'm intrigued by what is going on in Australia right now, looking from afar in the UK. I still haven't cancelled my hotels in late Nov / early Dec in Brisbane and Adelaide for the Ashes, although I'm resigned to the fact I am locked out of Aussie for a long time. Did I see somewhere that there is talk of border closures until potentially 2023? Its insanity.

Are everyday Aussies really putting up with this never ending cycle of scare tactics, lockdown and political game playing? I thought there was a plan? I deeply feel for my fellow Australian friends and aviation comrades who are having to put with this nonsense day after day.

Were they putting up with it when Scotty from Marketing was walking around freely in the UK, tracing his family tree and mingling with political mates at the G7? At the same time saying how dangerous the UK is right now.*

*Newsflash - it isn't. The delta variant of course is a more infectious and possibly deadlier variant, but each of the vaccines are strongly effective against it and now over 80% of the adult population has had one dose and as of now all of the priority groups would've had their second. Life has almost returned to normal domestically and in fact, in reality, with Euro 2020 ongoing, it already has. In 18 days time, in theory, all restrictions will have been removed in the UK although I'm dubious as to what might happen later in the year. Right now there are around 20,000++ cases a day on average, but only around 200 a day going in hospital and on average around a dozen a day are dying. On a typical day probably around 1,300 people die every day in the UK. Perspective - something a lot of governments don't seem to have.

Being double vaccinated, I couldn't be any more protected apart from the exposure from widespread community transmission. But the vaccines are so miraculous, in over 90% of cases prevent you getting severe disease, even more so if you're under 50 where the risk really was significantly reduced before vaccines. Eventually, people who are fully vaccinated will be able to travel to amber countries without a return quarantine and most of Europe are now doing this from today with their new travel pass.

For what it's worth, I am 33 years old and had the AZ vaccine in around late March. I was groggy for 24 hours first time like most but absolutely fine - like 100,000s of others in my age bracket who had early access for whatever reason. Back at the time when there were question marks over this vaccine, there was 1.1 case in 100,000 of severe reaction which was slightly larger than the severe Covid risk for this cohort and as such the decision was made by UK JCVI, the regulator. Not for scare tactics, but a strategic risked based decision.

The world really is full of inconsistencies at the moment... it does irk me how science differs depending on your nationality, wallet size or celebrity status.

Lead Balloon 1st Jul 2021 22:19


So by that logic the PM should stay out then? What about the various government ministers that need to travel?
Yep. Either don't go, or stay out if you do. And it's by their own logic.

Define "need". Who's going to die if pollies don't travel overseas? Who's going to declare war on us or stop sending us Christmas Cards?

Each of those trips involves dozens of hangers-on who each pose a 'quarantine' hotel leak risk, and each of those leaks has cost and continues to cost the country billions.

What about Australians that live overseas and need to come home to deal with various family issues? They can’t go back overseas?
Define "need". Who's going to die if they don't come home or can't go back overseas unless they stay there until the pandemic is under control?

What about the various business owners in Australia that need to travel to keep their businesses running?
Define "need". Who's going to die if they don't travel?

What about Australians that have family overseas they need to see?
Define "need". Who's going to die if they don't "see" the overseas family?

There are inumerable examples of people who "need" to travel within Australia but are prohibited from doing so. Lives and businesses are being destroyed here, and people are being cut off from family here, due to the restrictions on travel within Australia, and those restrictions have been triggered by outbreaks caused by infections from overseas travel!

And there are thousands of travellers let in from overseas who aren't Australians and aren't visiting dying relatives!

It's about the rank hypocrisy.

Much of this could have been avoided if the Commonwealth had stepped up to its responsibilities and started building proper quarantine facilities over a year ago. But, just as Scotty from Marketing doesn't hold a hose, he doesn't lay bricks.

blubak 1st Jul 2021 22:43


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11071450)
It has just been stated that since this began.. there have been 51000 people through HQ in WA alone. Some have been through HQ as many as 8 times!!! This rubbish has to stop. You come in, you stay in. You leave now, you don’t come back. And that included ‘ sports people’ and such.

Thats a disgrace & needs to be stopped as you say.
You get 1 chance & 1 chance only.
This situation is controlled by federal govt?

Lead Balloon 1st Jul 2021 22:53

Yes. The Federal government decides who comes here, and the circumstances in which they come.

hawkerxp 1st Jul 2021 23:54


Originally Posted by blubak (Post 11071770)
Thats a disgrace & needs to be stopped as you say.
You get 1 chance & 1 chance only.
This situation is controlled by federal govt?

So you’ll pay my mortgage when I can’t travel
overseas for work. Or better still, can you please point me to a job based here I can take… maybe I’ll call up some local airlines and offer to work at pennies on the dollar and ruin it for local crew (that’s sarcasm). Some. People have a legitimate reason to travel overseas multiple times.

Lead Balloon 2nd Jul 2021 00:13

And what about the people who can't pay their mortgage because their business in Australia has died, due to lockdowns caused by overseas travel by others?

Torukmacto 2nd Jul 2021 00:19

The country will reopen , up to you to be vaccinated or not when living with covid .

Gnadenburg 2nd Jul 2021 00:48


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11071808)
And what about the people who can't pay their mortgage because their business in Australia has died, due to lockdowns caused by overseas travel by others?

What about those who have and will lose their livelihoods due to an extended border closure in Australia?

Quarantine was bungled, vaccination rollout a shambles and lockdowns debatable. I really can't blame Australians travelling overseas to make a living. Seems unfashionable to be a profitable Aussie these days.

Lead Balloon 2nd Jul 2021 01:01

I agree.

My point is that the 'fallout' from the bungled quarantine arrangements and vaccine rollout should be equitably shared. But it seems that some people are more equal than others.

Chronic Snoozer 2nd Jul 2021 01:01


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11071808)
And what about the people who can't pay their mortgage because their business in Australia has died, due to lockdowns caused by overseas travel by others?

It’s not the porous border policy that is causing this. They’ve had 15 months to sort this out by throwing practically unlimited resources at it and the net result is arguments about traveller quotas and a plan to build quarantine centres God only knows when. What about the complete lack of common sense that sees limo drivers (of international flight crew FFS) not testing or masking up (allegedly), receptionists working outside a COVID ward unvaccinated, the sub-standard information flow about which vaccines are available and to whom slowing the entire roll out down, not to mention unmasked, multi-jobbing hotel ‘security’ guards and mixing domestic and international travellers at quarantine hotels?

If someone wants to go through hotel quarantine 8 times, that is their business, however that’s 7 people that could have returned from overseas - that is an issue.

Lead Balloon 2nd Jul 2021 01:37

I agree.

But I don't agree that tolerating numerous stupid things is a justification for continuing to tolerate all of those stupid things.

Scooter Rassmussin 2nd Jul 2021 02:09


Originally Posted by Potsie Weber (Post 11071577)
About time we incentivised vaccines in this country. There is enough vaccine to to cover the most at risk and at risk of causing breakouts.
  1. You cannot enter this country unless you are fully vaccinated
  2. You cannot leave this country until you are fully vaccinated
  3. You can travel freely within this country if you are fully vaccinated. You are not subject to state border restrictions or lockdowns.
  4. You can travel freely overseas to low risk countries from 31 Oct if you are fully vaccinated with quarantine on return for 1 test and then no quarantine but a follow up test in 7 days
  5. You can travel freely to low risk countries from 1Dec if you are fully vaccinated with no quarantine but a test on return.
  6. If you work in front line health, borders, emergency, international freight movements etc you get paid double time every single time you go to work for the next 6mths if you are fully vaccinated and you will receive a tax credit for the next 3yrs for your service to the greater good of the country.
Just watch how many would suddenly think the minimal risk of AZ side effects is acceptable when freedom and money comes into it.

All it needs is a plan!

So how do you stop people coming to Australia with fake Vaccinnation certificates ? Unlikely for borders to open before 2025.

Keg 2nd Jul 2021 02:29


Originally Posted by Scooter Rassmussin (Post 11071851)
So how do you stop people coming to Australia with fake Vaccinnation certificates ? Unlikely for borders to open before 2025.

As long as Covid doesn’t morph into something that can beat the vaccines, borders will be more or less completely open by this time next year. Wouldn’t surprise me if we’re allowing those vaccinated to travel to certain countries with minimal iso on return by February or March.

Fonz121 2nd Jul 2021 03:32


Originally Posted by Scooter Rassmussin (Post 11071851)
So how do you stop people coming to Australia with fake Vaccinnation certificates ? Unlikely for borders to open before 2025.

The same way you stop people coming on fake documents of any kind I’d suggest. I can’t see it being an issue.

Potsie Weber 2nd Jul 2021 04:17


Originally Posted by Keg (Post 11071859)
As long as Covid doesn’t morph into something that can beat the vaccines, borders will be more or less completely open by this time next year. Wouldn’t surprise me if we’re allowing those vaccinated to travel to certain countries with minimal iso on return by February or March.

Doesn’t seem much of an improvement. We are going further backwards with 50% caps for the rest of this year and “hope we are living in the second phase next year”. The second phase means unvaccinated caps back to today’s level, possible increase in vaccinated travel but still existing quarantine for unvaxxed and maybe 7 day home quarantine for vaxxed. That’s hardly opening up.

jrfsp 2nd Jul 2021 04:24


Originally Posted by Potsie Weber (Post 11071873)
Doesn’t seem much of an improvement. We are going further backwards with 50% caps for the rest of this year and “hope we are living in the second phase next year”. The second phase means unvaccinated caps back to today’s level, possible increase in vaccinated travel but still existing quarantine for unvaxxed and maybe 7 day home quarantine for vaxxed. That’s hardly opening up.

Even with home quarantine - its still not fun and really only those who need to travel or those taking extended leave will be going, no-one will be going to Bali for a week only to return to a week or two of home quarantine.

neville_nobody 2nd Jul 2021 04:32


As long as Covid doesn’t morph into something that can beat the vaccines, borders will be more or less completely open by this time next year. Wouldn’t surprise me if we’re allowing those vaccinated to travel to certain countries with minimal iso on return by February or March.
Why do you believe that? I just can't see the impetus for anyone in government to do anything. The Feds are hamstrung by the States and the States are basically running their own countries now so why will they surrender that? There is no constitutional pressure, and the states can just keep on waivering any sort of rule of law by declaring emergencies. What's the circuit breaker to end this?

Foxxster 2nd Jul 2021 04:36


Originally Posted by jrfsp (Post 11071874)
Even with home quarantine - its still not fun and really only those who need to travel or those taking extended leave will be going, no-one will be going to Bali for a week only to return to a week or two of home quarantine.

or there will be massive non compliance. Can you really see the 20 and 30 somethings actually complying completely with a weeks home detention. Uni students…etc…


Once we reach around 70% fully vaccinated, there should be NO measures like social distancing, QR codes, masks, lockdowns or ANY quarantine period for returning international travellers. That’s the whole point of a MASS vaccination program. Anything else and there will be bloody riots and I’ll be up the front.

as for fake certificates.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...esearchers-say


and fake vaccines

https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...le34979344.ece

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/scie...bal-crime-wave

Troo believer 2nd Jul 2021 04:51


Originally Posted by Foxxster (Post 11071877)
or there will be massive non compliance. Can you really see the 20 and 30 somethings actually complying completely with a weeks home detention. Uni students…etc…


Once we reach around 70% fully vaccinated, there should be NO measures like social distancing, QR codes, masks, lockdowns or ANY quarantine period for returning international travellers. That’s the whole point of a MASS vaccination program. Anything else and there will be bloody riots and I’ll be up the front.

as for fake certificates.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...esearchers-say


and fake vaccines

https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...le34979344.ece

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/scie...bal-crime-wave

Something positive and you talk it down with negatives that are just crap. Digital certificate embedded in your passport. Problem solved. Facial recognition scan. Problem solved. Government encrypted app. Problem solved.


Torukmacto 2nd Jul 2021 05:07

Get enough vaccinated and no need for health passports , facial recognition , hotel quarantine, home quarantine , daily updates on coronavirus or lockdowns and border control .
It gets called a common virus and we forget about it .

Foxxster 2nd Jul 2021 05:07


Originally Posted by Troo believer (Post 11071880)
Something positive and you talk it down with negatives that are just crap. Digital certificate embedded in your passport. Problem solved. Facial recognition scan. Problem solved. Government encrypted app. Problem solved.


you should get onto the FBI and international customs departments. I’m sure they will value your input and you easily, cough cough implemented ideas. After all seeing as they are so easy, they have already been implemented world wide so there are actually no fake certificates now and nobody using them and getting caught.

and as I said, once we get to around 70% vaccinated there should be NO NEED FOR ANY MEASURES.

ScepticalOptomist 2nd Jul 2021 08:07


Originally Posted by Scooter Rassmussin (Post 11071851)
So how do you stop people coming to Australia with fake Vaccinnation certificates ? Unlikely for borders to open before 2025.

I believe you have missed the point completely.

SOPS 2nd Jul 2021 09:11

So this magic 30000 number of Australians wanting to get home has popped again today.

The new international arrival cap is 3035 people a week. So in around 10 weeks, all Australians that want, should be home, right?

Lead Balloon 2nd Jul 2021 09:22

You'd like to think so, but nah.

Most of the 30,000 are nobodies like us.

Most of the 3,035 will, in contrast, be special people. Some are going for their Platinum Frequent Quarantiner membership.

Keg 2nd Jul 2021 09:41


Originally Posted by neville_nobody (Post 11071876)
Why do you believe that? I just can't see the impetus for anyone in government to do anything. The Feds are hamstrung by the States and the States are basically running their own countries now so why will they surrender that? There is no constitutional pressure, and the states can just keep on waivering any sort of rule of law by declaring emergencies. What's the circuit breaker to end this?

The circuit breaker will be significantly decreased sickness and hospitalisation overseas from Delta Covid. The circuit breaker will be a population that is 80%+ vaccinated by Christmas this year demanding to know why they can’t travel without onerous restrictions that the rest of the world doesn’t have to deal with. The Australian public have been pretty resilient and patient waiting for the ‘way out’ (vaccines). Once that arrives the patience will start to dissipate as quickly as the virus.

aviation_enthus 2nd Jul 2021 11:31


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11071954)
So this magic 30000 number of Australians wanting to get home has popped again today.

The new international arrival cap is 3035 people a week. So in around 10 weeks, all Australians that want, should be home, right?

Nope!! Congrats on figuring out the basic maths, but what you keep missing is the “30,000” is not static.

Pre-COVID there was upto 1 Million Aussies living and working overseas. Combine that with the fact 1/3rd of Australians were born overseas, means there’s a never ending amount of people with a need to get back.

I’m overseas and not included in that 30,000 along with dozens of other Aussies I know. So what happens later this year or early next when we all decide to come back?

(For any reason by the way, why people travel is none of your business to be honest! I’m an Aussie citizen, access to my own country eventually would be nice “mate”)

Lead Balloon 2nd Jul 2021 11:40

What is the continuous period (up until now) you've been stuck overseas, aviation enthus?

aviation_enthus 2nd Jul 2021 12:07


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11072025)
What is the continuous period (up until now) you've been stuck overseas, aviation enthus?

Define “stuck”. I’m lucky to still have a job, a visa and a house to live in. Over the past 18 months I’ve encountered plenty of people that had massive problems returning home due to the border restrictions.

Haven’t visited Australia on holidays since mid 2019. Given the current issues around travel and the border, I don’t expect to visit again until mid next year. So that’ll be about 3 years by then. That’s longer than normal, as an expat you anticipate being able to head home once a year.

Currently working overseas, but like many it’s not a permanent decision, we will come back. Australia is our country. Our home.

Probably 99% of the Aussies I’ve spoken to in the last 18 months are pissed off about the way they’ve been treated by their own country. Plus it’s ironic that Australia thinks it’s the “envy of the world” with their pandemic management. I can tell you with a straight face that’s a load of BS. The rest of the world is laughing at us!!

ozbiggles 2nd Jul 2021 13:39


Originally Posted by aviation_enthus (Post 11072038)
Define “stuck”. I’m lucky to still have a job, a visa and a house to live in. Over the past 18 months I’ve encountered plenty of people that had massive problems returning home due to the border restrictions.

Haven’t visited Australia on holidays since mid 2019. Given the current issues around travel and the border, I don’t expect to visit again until mid next year. So that’ll be about 3 years by then. That’s longer than normal, as an expat you anticipate being able to head home once a year.

Currently working overseas, but like many it’s not a permanent decision, we will come back. Australia is our country. Our home.

Probably 99% of the Aussies I’ve spoken to in the last 18 months are pissed off about the way they’ve been treated by their own country. Plus it’s ironic that Australia thinks it’s the “envy of the world” with their pandemic management. I can tell you with a straight face that’s a load of BS. The rest of the world is laughing at us!!

I'd suggest to you the relatives of the 128, 000 dead UK citizens from Covid aren't laughing....

aviation_enthus 2nd Jul 2021 15:02

Aaaannnddd there it is….
 

Originally Posted by ozbiggles (Post 11072070)
I'd suggest to you the relatives of the 128, 000 dead UK citizens from Covid aren't laughing....

No I’m sure they aren’t. And I’m also glad that elderly relatives have largely been saved back home.

However….

You misunderstood why they are laughing. It’s the lack of care and respect for their own citizens both inside and outside of Australia. COVID can be tackled will still showing some care for you own citizens….

- only country ON EARTH to threaten jail time for citizens trying to come home

- look at the fiasco around Christmas/NYE when Victorians were locked out of returning to their own homes

- the multiple times QLD has denied access for people from NSW to access hospitals in SEQLD

That’s just a few off the top of my head that regularly come up in conversation.

Now Australia is an island. So a strategy that plays to that strength is great. By all means have quarantine on arrival, even user pays after the first few months.

But the way Australian citizens are treated is what they’re laughing at mate. What are we loosing in the name of “health advice”…??

GA F15 2nd Jul 2021 20:45


Originally Posted by ozbiggles (Post 11072070)
I'd suggest to you the relatives of the 128, 000 dead UK citizens from Covid aren't laughing....

What annoys me is the way the Aussies look at death rates and claim victory over the Poms like it’s the ashes!
Yes they did well by locking down hard and fast, but they never seem to acknowledge the luck that geography and population density differences provided. Apples and Oranges.

Jetsbest 2nd Jul 2021 21:50


What annoys me is the way the Aussies look at death rates and claim victory over the Poms like it’s the ashes!
It may appear that way but remember, all politics is ‘local’. I can’t comment for all Aussies… (as ‘average’ as I am) but I don’t think most gloat in that way.

Media & politicians are all pandering to the click-bait / re-election motivators; sad & frustrating to many.🙄


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