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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

GaryGnu 31st Dec 2020 22:12

dr dre no one suggesting constitutional reform seriously suggests that it could be done quickly enough to affect the current COVID situation. Nor do they think it could be done easily, as both you and Wingnut point out.

I don't think that means we shouldn't try.

State governments represent provincial jurisdictions separated by lines on a map that are in no way reflective of the way people live their increasingly interconnected lives. State borders were probably made irrelevant by mass production of the personal motor vehicle. That irrelevance is accentuated by widespread availability of air transit.



Both of which should be done by the Federal Government which for the most part has been MIA.
While I may not agree with your prescription for dealing with COVID, I do agree that crises of this magnitude are best dealt with by Federal/National Governments.

Perhaps a Federal/National Government deprived of the ability to devolve responsibility, power and blame to non-existent State Governments would be more likely to step up and solve the next COVID scale problem that comes along.

Green.Dot 31st Dec 2020 22:33


Originally Posted by Turnleft080 (Post 10958078)
Just like the price of petrol goes up overnight and takes 3 weeks to come down.
Eight cases yesterday all borders close. ZERO cases in VIC today borders remain closed for 3 weeks if it stays at zero.

As I said yesterday 10 cases might as well be 1000 when it comes to the knock on effects in aviation

brokenagain 31st Dec 2020 22:46


Another 18 today for Vic.
5 actually, 3 of which are returned overseas travellers already in quarantine.

dr dre 31st Dec 2020 23:10


Originally Posted by GaryGnu (Post 10958092)
.

Perhaps a Federal/National Government deprived of the ability to devolve responsibility, power and blame to non-existent State Governments would be more likely to step up and solve the next COVID scale problem that comes along.

Are you saying taking over responsibility for immigration and quarantine as they are constitutionally obligated to and making the expedited rollout of this vaccine their number one priority over the next few months are things the current Federal Government can only do if you remove any other body they can lay blame on and delegate responsibility to, until thereís no one left to blame but themselves?

Sounds like a pretty pathetic government. You could probably apply the things you said about states being irrelevant in a time of mass air travel, digital communication and globalisation to the nation state as well.

I keep hearing thats itís time for Australia to become one, to act as one instead of 8 divided entities. If thatís the case then the one who should be putting in place that idea of Australia acting as one is the leader of Australia. Where is he? Itís well past time he stepped up and applied some real leadership skills. But as the bushfires showed heís got no idea how to lead in a crisis and just delegates responsibility to others. Scotty from Marketing for real. Itís like every lesson of airline command training is being thrown out the window.

Címon, act as a leader, take responsibility for international quarantine and get this vaccine here ASAP!

Buster Hyman 1st Jan 2021 00:37


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10958117)
I keep hearing thats itís time for Australia to become one, to act as one instead of 8 divided entities. If thatís the case then the one who should be putting in place that idea of Australia acting as one is the leader of Australia.

You've answered your own question. He doesn't have the authority to arbitrarily dissolve State powers hence why you are 'hearing things'.


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10958117)
But as the bushfires showed heís got no idea how to lead in a crisis and just delegates responsibility to others.

State responsibility. No need for the PM to 'take command' when the established responsibilities are known to, well, most people.


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10958117)
Címon, act as a leader, take responsibility for international quarantine and get this vaccine here ASAP!

Well, I guess that's one delegation he could take back. Shouldn't take long to establish all the networks & responsible people to enact this after they take it back from the States.

Australopithecus 1st Jan 2021 00:38

From The Age:

Morrison rejects 'very dangerous' rush to approve vaccine

By Nick Bonyhady
The Prime Minister and Chief Medical Officer have rejected calls to rush through approvals for a coronavirus vaccine.

Scott Morrison and Professor Paul Kelly said at a press conference on New Year’s Day that the situation in Australia was different to overseas because there were far fewer cases of coronavirus here, giving the Therapeutic Goods Administration time to assess each vaccine thoroughly for safety and effectiveness.

"With a vaccine you don't rush to failure, that would be very dangerous to Australians,” Mr Morrison said.

Those who suggested otherwise, the Prime Minister said, were "naive".

While the country waits for a vaccine, Professor Kelly said the government had pushed Victoria to step up its coronavirus testing in conversations between health ministers and medical officers.

Countries such as the US and UK that have started vaccinating people have done so with emergency approval of the vaccine, not full approval as with other vaccines.”

I cannot believe this. The normal full licence process takes years. The emergency use authorisations issued by every other western nation of note uses the same strict oversight guidelines and processes, just with the data available today. If we wait until the data set is large enough to give comfort to some bureaucrats then we really won't have an industry left. Morrison is a smirking lightweight who only recognises leadership so that he can stab it in the back.


dr dre 1st Jan 2021 01:24


Originally Posted by Australopithecus (Post 10958152)
[h2][size=13px]I cannot believe this. The normal full licence process takes years. The emergency use authorisations issued by every other western nation of note uses the same strict oversight guidelines and processes, just with the data available today. If we wait until the data set is large enough to give comfort to some bureaucrats then we really won't have an industry left. Morrison is a smirking lightweight who only recognises leadership so that he can stab it in the back.

Maybe if Airlines offered free freight transport of the vaccine into and around Australia in exchange for the Federal Government expediting the rollout of it? It's pretty ridiculous for Greg Hunt to say implementing the vaccine earlier would be "irresponsible and reckless" considering the states are not willing to allow any outbreaks until herd immunity is reached. It seems to me as if the Feds are going to play politics as a FU to the states just to spite them.

So the question then asked is, if the Federal government are ending jobkeeper in March but aren't going to have enough herd immunity to allow an easing of restrictions until October, what happens in the intervening 7 months? Does it make Australians desperate and angry only to have it resolved and the Federal government's pandemic response declared a success immediately before the next Federal Election, which can be called at any time from August 2021 to September 2022?

Labor calls for Australia's Covid vaccine rollout to be accelerated

Mach E Avelli 1st Jan 2021 01:24

Ah, but we from the Land Down Under always know more than everyone else. Proof of this can be found in our aviation legislation, which far exceeds world's best practice.
So far Australia has fared very well, thanks mainly to being an island and having a relatively compliant population. But if we are last in the world to come out of restrictions we will pay a terrible economic price.
For once I am firmly on the side of the Opposition - let's bloody DO IT and get the jabs asap.

stickshaken 1st Jan 2021 01:51


Originally Posted by Turnleft080 (Post 10957609)
Gladly take it if you can prove it won't effect any other part of the human body long term and I would have more confidence if the
companies can provide liability. They don't, so what does that mean they don't trust their own product.

Turnleft080 I agree with you. At this point nobody can indicate what the long term side affects will be, especially the medical profession.

There is a lot of money to be made with this vaccine and there are certainly many big stakes at risk. Maybe some research into which countries have to most to gain, and have controlling interests in these drug companies may raise several eyebrows.

For flight crew, youíd be an absolute fool to prematurely take an unknown substance such as this vaccine without considering what effect that could have on your medical down the track, or worse if an adverse reaction occurs on the flight deck with several hundred or so passengers sitting behind you.
I wonder what casa thinks of this, and what effect this has on your loss of license / life insurance policies.
Time will tell.



Australopithecus 1st Jan 2021 02:05

Do some non-social media research on vaccine side effects and the timelines thereof. Let’s assume that its a binary choice: taking the vaccine before a medical renewal or getting covid-19. Which do you think would be worse by a factor of a million? That’s right. The covid-19 disease.

Some airlines provide critical thinking skills development courses. Just saying...

dr dre 1st Jan 2021 02:34


Originally Posted by Australopithecus (Post 10958173)
Do some non-social media research on vaccine side effects and the timelines thereof. Letís assume that its a binary choice: taking the vaccine before a medical renewal or getting covid-19. Which do you think would be worse by a factor of a million? Thatís right. The covid-19 disease.

Some airlines provide critical thinking skills development courses. Just saying...

This is what worries me. If there's even a small amount of anti-vaxxerism in an industry that needs this vaccine can you imagine the level of resistance to take the vaccine in the general public? It may not even be over before year's end if there's this level of unscientific rubbish being spread around to the point where the required immunity level isn't reached on schedule?

TBM-Legend 1st Jan 2021 03:09

Fast forward ten or so years:

Ad appears - "If you had a CV19 vaccination in 2021 please contact Smith, Smith and Smith Attorneys at Law and join the millions in our Class Action!"

Australopithecus 1st Jan 2021 03:24

And if you didnít, and now have permanent organ damage, do you get to sue some [email protected] on social media? How about if youíre dead? Or how about if someone else is living in your fine house because you took a permanent 60% pay cut when your airline folded? FFS.

kingRB 1st Jan 2021 03:30


Originally Posted by stickshaken (Post 10958170)
For flight crew, youíd be an absolute fool to prematurely take an unknown substance such as this vaccine without considering what effect that could have on your medical down the track, or worse if an adverse reaction occurs on the flight deck with several hundred or so passengers sitting behind you.
I wonder what casa thinks of this, and what effect this has on your loss of license / life insurance policies.
Time will tell.

That's why I wouldn't go anywhere near it until AVMED and CASA approves it for flight crew. I believe the FAA have already in the US. Hopefully puts some responsibility back on the regulator. I won't be holding my breath though.


Originally Posted by Australopithecus (Post 10958173)
Do some non-social media research on vaccine side effects and the timelines thereof. Letís assume that its a binary choice: taking the vaccine before a medical renewal or getting covid-19. Which do you think would be worse by a factor of a million? Thatís right. The covid-19 disease.

Some airlines provide critical thinking skills development courses. Just saying...

That non social media research as you put it probably would mean you are aware that many people that contract it may not even have symptoms. Then develop their own immunity to it, no difference to the result of a vaccine. But that's worse by a factor of a million is it?

dr dre 1st Jan 2021 03:45


Originally Posted by kingRB (Post 10958187)
That's why I wouldn't go anywhere near it until AVMED and CASA approves it for flight crew. I believe the FAA have already in the US. Hopefully puts some responsibility back on the regulator. I won't be holding my breath though.

CASA (on it's website) doesn't specifically approve any vaccine, the only info about vaccines is in the medication recommendations section where they say wait 24hrs post vaccination until operating. If the FAA already have approved it, and the TGA are expected to in January, I don't see why CASA will object.


neville_nobody 1st Jan 2021 04:39


So the question then asked is, if the Federal government are ending jobkeeper in March but aren't going to have enough herd immunity to allow an easing of restrictions until October, what happens in the intervening 7 months?
Here's a thought. In those intervening 7 months the State governments may actually have to be economically responsible for once.


Does it make Australians desperate and angry only to have it resolved and the Federal government's pandemic response declared a success immediately before the next Federal Election, which can be called at any time from August 2021 to September 2022?
The entire federal government response has been basically destroyed by State Policies. The only thing that will get the State's attention will be some mass redundancies and a few bankruptcies. Unfortunately I fear that will come from the Aviation Sector.

JustinHeywood 1st Jan 2021 04:53


Originally Posted by kingRB (Post 10958187)
....That's why I wouldn't go anywhere near it [Covid vaccine] until AVMED and CASA approves it for flight crew.?

Good grief.
Please give CASA a ring with your concerns and let us know how you go.

Australopithecus 1st Jan 2021 05:12


Originally Posted by kingRB (Post 10958187)
That's why I wouldn't go anywhere near it until AVMED and CASA approves it for flight crew. I believe the FAA have already in the US. Hopefully puts some responsibility back on the regulator. I won't be holding my breath though.



That non social media research as you put it probably would mean you are aware that many people that contract it may not even have symptoms. Then develop their own immunity to it, no difference to the result of a vaccine. But that's worse by a factor of a million is it?

Why no it isnít in fact. I was taking poetic licence. In actual fact Covid-19 is much worse than that. I will save you the time: if infected, with any of the current known mutations you have an approximately 2% chance of dying, and an approximately 20% chance of having a lengthy long-covid illness or permanent disability. If you get the vaccine you have a demonstrated zero chance of dying, and a possibility of an easily treated allergic reaction approximately 1 in 2 million times.

Aviation is never coming back without a wide scale vaccination programme, and I would not be surprised to see them made mandatory by employers, governments and health care providers. .

kingRB 1st Jan 2021 06:02


Originally Posted by Australopithecus (Post 10958211)
Why no it isnít in fact. I was taking poetic licence. In actual fact Covid-19 is much worse than that. I will save you the time: if infected, with any of the current known mutations you have an approximately 2% chance of dying, and an approximately 20% chance of having a lengthy long-covid illness or permanent disability.

you'll need to provide some citations there if you want to state it as fact- otherwise i'll just dismiss it as the very "social media research" BS that you were on about in your original post, and typical hyperbole with this subject. As far as I am aware there is precisely zero peer reviewed studies or widespread research being conducted on "lengthy long-covid illness or permanent disability", because there is nothing new or unique about it. It has no greater risk factor of lasting ongoing symptoms that differs at all to previous SARS Coronavirus or Influenza.


De_flieger 1st Jan 2021 06:34


Originally Posted by kingRB (Post 10958221)
you'll need to provide some citations there if you want to state it as fact- otherwise i'll just dismiss it as the very "social media research" BS that you were on about in your original post, and typical hyperbole with this subject. As far as I am aware there is precisely zero peer reviewed studies or widespread research being conducted on "lengthy long-covid illness or permanent disability", because there is nothing new or unique about it. It has no greater risk factor of lasting ongoing symptoms that differs at all to previous SARS Coronavirus or Influenza.

Those statements are incorrect.

There are numerous peer reviewed studies completed or being done into the long-term health effects of coronavirus due to the numbers of people experiencing long term symptoms or organ damage. You can read about one study that was done at St Vincents Hospital (Sydney) here: Australian study finds COVID-19 'long haulers' suffer symptoms months after coronavirus infection or one that was done in the UK here: Southmead Hospital publishes pioneering research on long term effects of coronavirus. There are many others out there, I don't want to spam you or the message board with links, but there is a lot of research being done in hospitals in many different countries all over the world including Australia and the USA on this exact topic, these results can be found relatively easily via Google taking you to their publishers or research organisations.


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