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-   -   Government Loan to Virgin Australia (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/631164-government-loan-virgin-australia.html)

DanV2 22nd Apr 2020 02:55


Originally Posted by Lookleft (Post 10758690)
Like people having the idea that SIA are savvy business people and that all that money is just going to be poured into yet another failed business investment.

Not to mention the fanboys still treating SIA as some "so-called messiah" of airlines, when in reality SIA can't organise a p^$$up in a brewery outside their own backyard (as shown by the mouting losses from their overall dismal record in investing in overseas arilines from Virgin Atlantic to the Air New Zealand group).

SIA are best to stick to their 'knitting', which is running their own group of airlines in Singapore.

PoppaJo 22nd Apr 2020 04:13

Wesfarmers have its own issues with Target at the moment I don’t think they want another. Target and Kmart could have earnings issues post this if spending slows. That will spread to leisure travel also, so highly risky taking on an airline, and having large stakes in discretionary spending businesses.

George Glass 22nd Apr 2020 04:32


Originally Posted by Paragraph377 (Post 10758022)
Sure! I will let some tidbits out. I know because I was ‘around’. Geoff Dixon, Alan Joyce and Bill Jauncey were the architects. Obviously Geoff was at QF and Alan and Bill were ex Ansett. In fact, once up and running Bill Jauncey could/was almost the JQ CEO but they wanted a ‘cleaner’ looking CEO image, a clean shaven suit wearing mincer like AJ was perfect. Bill was a gravelly whisky drinking ciggie smoker, but a very smart man. The original plan was simple - QF to do international and just the highly profitable business class domestic routes - BNE/SYD/MEL. The rest was to go to JQ. Cheap cheap cheap! Get rid of those pesky $300k pilots and have the majority of flights done by Onestar Pilots on around $120k. That’s the short version.

As for Virgin (Blue), they should’ve stuck with the intended business model - all 737 fleet and aimed at low fares and filling planes. Simple. But by the time JQ was hitting the tarmac VB had a fat workforce and was far from lean. JQ was the opposite and most times it was ridiculously lean. VB were never going to be able to operate cheaper than JQ and should’ve started trimming fat back in 2005 but they didn’t. They became a floated company and decided to chase QF’s business model/lounges/ rewards card structure, but it was only ever a half arsed product that sat in between cattle classs and business. Big, costly mistake. Then when they morphed from an all 737 fleet to an entity with b737, A320, A330, ATR and the list goes on, it was ‘game over’ not ‘game changer’. You would’ve thought that the ghost of Ansett and it’s ridiculous fleet variation thanks to Sir Peter Abeles going to Tolouse and getting a hard-on and opening the cheque book could be repeated. You would think that Ansett would have still been fresh in the minds of anyone operating an airline in Australia, but nah. That was the day Ansett died, the end result was inevitable and occurred a number of years later. Same has happened to Virgin Australia, it started out with an identity but lost its way and never got comfortable with who it wanted to be and what it had eventually become.

Para is pretty well spot on. I will add however that Virgin never really grasped how brutal QF management is , even with its own people.
Dixon initially offered JQ flying to mainline QF pilots but on a new cheap and nasty contract. The geniuses at AIPA demanded that the flying be done on existing awards. Management laughed. Enter the JQ $120ker”s , many left over from Ansett just happy to have a job and even happier to undercut Virgin. QF dumped Tasmania , Gold Coast etc. because they were loss makers , hived them off to JQ , and again ignored the bleating from Mainline pilots.
Virgin then tried to take on QF in mining contracts in WA. They got some, but only the ones QF knew were duds.
And then there was Business Class. Oh dear.....
Etc. etc.
The moral is that anybody who take on QF in a new entity better know what they are doing or we will be back here in a few years time.

SandyPalms 22nd Apr 2020 04:36

Just a quick correction George. QF never offered the JQ flying to Qantas pilots. Never. It had already been claimed by impulse pilots by the time AIPA was any the wiser. The impulse pilots offered to fly the A320 for the same money the we’re flying the 717’s. QF couldn’t resist. I was there. AIPA actually helped them get more money, but the only thing QF (and the fat bastard) would agree to was a fairly useless MOU.

markontop 22nd Apr 2020 04:40

SP, didn’t mainline QF pilots end up working for Jetstar?

SandyPalms 22nd Apr 2020 04:42

A decade later, yes. Some did. It’s not relevant in the context of this thread. I’m just setting the record straight about another uninformed attack on AIPA. Carry on.

George Glass 22nd Apr 2020 04:47


Originally Posted by SandyPalms (Post 10758739)
Just a quick correction George. QF never offered the JQ flying to Qantas pilots. Never. It had already been claimed by impulse pilots by the time AIPA was any the wiser. The impulse pilots offered to fly the A320 for the same money the we’re flying the 717’s. QF couldn’t resist. I was there. AIPA actually helped them get more money, but the only thing QF (and the fat bastard) would agree to was a fairly useless MOU.

Agreed, initially at least , but when the Impluse pilots were all taken up discussions were entered into. I remember the meetings in Melbourne clearly.

krismiler 22nd Apr 2020 05:07

If the new Virgin Australia wants to go head on at QF they need to do it as part of a major airline such as SQ or Air China. Before the major corporations shift their travel accounts they would want to be sure that the airline they switch to is solid, has all the perks such as lounges, membership of an alliance and a proper business class, and will be around long term. If this can't be guaranteed then don't even think about it.

If it's an Australian private equity take over then respect QF's 65% line in the sand, have a single type on domestic routes (possibly NZ, Fiji and DPS), business class similar to JQ if at all, and stick to profitable routes with a lean operation.

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

DanV2 22nd Apr 2020 05:22

Neither SQ or Air China has formally expressed interest in VAH to administrators.
The current SIA board wouldn't be that stupid to throw away money at a "4th attempt" at the Australian market after the fails of their first 3 attempts under previous management teams.

dr dre 22nd Apr 2020 06:24


Originally Posted by krismiler (Post 10758755)
If the new Virgin Australia wants to go head on at QF they need to do it as part of a major airline such as SQ or Air China.
Don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

What's with all this talk on the day VA goes into administration of another upcoming major capacity war? The last one that happened put VA into a decade of losses they never recovered from. For the next few years it'll be solely about survival and return to profitability in a smaller form. Given what happened last time not a single investor is going to back another exercise to burn cash, especially in the market environment that will exist for the next few years.

Buster Hyman 22nd Apr 2020 06:30

PS. The QLD Govt. are using Bazookas in gun fights now...:rolleyes:

WillieTheWimp 22nd Apr 2020 07:47

Ha! I wouldn’t exactly call $200 mil a bazooka in this business.

ifylofd 22nd Apr 2020 08:06

shhhoosh, GG has the floor.....
 

Virgin then tried to take on QF in mining contracts in WA. They got some, but only the ones QF knew were duds
Really George?

Fliegenmong 22nd Apr 2020 08:25

I doubt more than 0.1% of VA's customers fly them because they hate Joyce.

Oh...thats me then.??..., We haven't flown QF since the 2011 'shutdown'....

T-Vasis 22nd Apr 2020 08:37

https://www.afr.com/companies/transp...0200421-p54ltx

Icarus2001 22nd Apr 2020 08:49

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....9e604874dc.jpg
Sir Richard ripping up a cheque for $240 million from SIA wanting to buy VB. Oh how the world changes.

George Glass 22nd Apr 2020 09:05


Originally Posted by ifylofd (Post 10758851)
Really George?

Its of no consequence to me if you believe me or not , but I know for a certain fact that Virgin acquired contacts by under-quoting QF to the point that they were not worth a pinch of the proverbial. That’s why they are where they are. Virgin had no corporate memory of the fact that regional aviation , RPT and Mining , has been a graveyard in every state in Australia for 40 years. The never ending search for a cheaper contractor is a sick joke. Witness the demise of Airlines of SA , MMA , Air Queensland, National Jet ,LLoyd Aviation etc. etc. Now , sadly many more will follow in their wake. Creative destruction! The free market has done its work. Services to regional Australia are worse than the were 30 years ago. Brilliant.

T-Vasis 22nd Apr 2020 09:37


Fliegenmong 22nd Apr 2020 10:02

"PS. The QLD Govt. are using Bazookas in gun fights now...https://www.pprune.org/images/smilie...n_rolleyes.gif"

You are aware of that saying about 'keeping your mouth closed and letting people think you are an idiot rather than opening your mouth and confirming it' right? :rolleyes:

burned_out 22nd Apr 2020 10:27

Thank God(us tax payers) that the govt held strong and didnt bail out VA. This would have been a bad signal to interfere way to much into the market and for tax payer money to be very badly spent on a risky loan to VA.
Now VA says they have 10+ buyers in the winds! So that magically happened overnight? I think Scurrah was taking the piss out of the tax payer, and quite frankly the piss out of Tigerair and VANZ staff that he just sacked on a dime.
What an arse IMHO.


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