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-   -   VN forgot to drop (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/625625-vn-forgot-drop.html)

PoppaJo 19th Sep 2019 07:46
VN forgot to drop
 
The gear..oh noes

The ATSB is investigating an incorrect configuration incident involving a Boeing 787, registered VN-A870, flight VN781, operated by Vietnam Airlines near Melbourne Airport, Victoria, on 19 September 2019.

During approach to land, Melbourne Air Traffic Control advised the crew that the aircraft’s landing gear was observed not to be extended. The crew initiated a missed approach.

As part of the investigation, the ATSB will obtain information from the flight crew, and additional information as required.

A report will be released at the end of the investigation. Should a critical safety issue be identified during the course of the investigation, the ATSB will immediately notify those affected and seek safety action to address the issue.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...r/ao-2019-051/

Ken Borough 19th Sep 2019 08:16
I wonder what, if anything, was said to the SLF. :8

Buster Hyman 19th Sep 2019 08:31
Some significant skid marks would have ensued...

ACMS 19th Sep 2019 08:54
They couldn’t have gotten below 800’ AGL without an EICAS master warning anyway.......( 800’ from memory )

ScepticalOptomist 19th Sep 2019 10:35
Or have selected landing flaps....

compressor stall 19th Sep 2019 11:00
Usual caveats of Flight radar data and the 6 second granularity... but it's showing GA at 650' .

If true, it will be an interesting report.

megan 19th Sep 2019 23:02
How to do it in a 747 (nearly).

https://www.avweb.com/features/pelic...ding-in-a-747/

Avinthenews 19th Sep 2019 23:16
Fed ex years back

sunnySA 21st Sep 2019 12:28
Apparently the error was spotted by one of the controllers working at Essendon Tower

rmcdonal 21st Sep 2019 17:56
FDR: 'What does "too low gear" mean?'

Bleve 21st Sep 2019 21:46
“Too Low Gear” is an EGPWS warning that you are ‘Too Low’ (ie near the runway) and the Landing ‘Gear’ is not down.

aviones 21st Sep 2019 22:17
I feel silly now.
 
Originally Posted by Bleve (Post 10575654)
“Too Low Gear” is an EGPWS warning that you are ‘Too Low’ (ie near the runway) and the Landing ‘Gear’ is not down.
Sorry RMCDONAL. I thought you were making a joke, like the flight data recorder showed the pilots saying to each other "what does Too Low Gear Mean?"
I didn't realise it was a serious question. Thank you Bleve for sorting this out for us.

KeepItRolling 22nd Sep 2019 00:11
Originally Posted by sunnySA (Post 10575290)
Apparently the error was spotted by one of the controllers working at Essendon Tower
So what else is new?

Capt Fathom 22nd Sep 2019 00:52
It's obviously not that busy at Essendon these days! :rolleyes:

smiling monkey 22nd Sep 2019 00:53
Originally Posted by megan (Post 10574070)
And how to do it in a 747 successfully.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...aair199403038/

KeepItRolling 22nd Sep 2019 00:54
Originally Posted by Capt Fathom (Post 10575727)
It's obviously not that busy at Essendon these days! :rolleyes:
EN TWR have to separate from 34 arrivals so keeping an eye on ML arrivals is part of the gig.

Cloud Cutter 22nd Sep 2019 17:05
Originally Posted by A little birdie (Post 10573543)
800’ RADALT is likely to be only 500-ish feet above the runway given the valley and lower terrain to the south of MEL 34.

Doubt it’s based on raw rad alt data, more likely runway field clearance floor. Needless to say, Mr Honeywell will alert you in plenty of time.

UnderneathTheRadar 22nd Sep 2019 21:05
Originally Posted by KeepItRolling (Post 10575730)

EN TWR have to separate from 34 arrivals so keeping an eye on ML arrivals is part of the gig.
A random piece of trivia the ARO told me - the design for the new hotel at the entry to Essendon airport was originally going to be on a north/south alignment but had to be rotated to minimise the amount of time ML 34 traffic was hidden out of sight of the EN TWR.

UTR

BuzzBox 23rd Sep 2019 02:15
Originally Posted by Cloud Cutter (Post 10576291)
Doubt it’s based on raw rad alt data, more likely runway field clearance floor. Needless to say, Mr Honeywell will alert you in plenty of time.



A ‘CONFIG GEAR’ EICAS warning is generated if the landing gear is not down and locked and one of the following occurs:
  • Below 800 feet radio altitude and a thrust lever is at idle, or
  • The flaps are in a landing position
A GPWS Mode 4A warning ‘TOO LOW GEAR’ is triggered at 500 ft RA.

C441 23rd Sep 2019 04:40
Have a read of some of the "Letters to the Editor" following articles in the media about this event for a bit of light entertainment.
  • "I think it is about time we put cameras in the cockpit to keep an eye on the pilots. This could video stream to control tower when near airport. Passengers deserve this to help maintain safety standards."
  • "Perform pre landing checks "BUMFISH" (brakes, undercarriage, mixture, fuel instruments, switches, harness & hatches). This is drummed into pilots from their initial flight lesson. Still only as good as one is prepared to apply this rule."
  • "You would think wheels down would be the default at low altitudes, with a difficult to overide " up" settings available for unusual situations. "
  • "They’d have killed everyone. Absolutely unbelievable!!"

Global Aviator 23rd Sep 2019 05:18
Well the system worked and caught a fook up. They somehow no doubt managed to do the before landing checklist without confirming all items. We have all seen variations of this no doubt. I heard of someone in a 320 do the same thing...

What was it that was said on completion of the constant speed retrac endorsement... I recall my instructor saying there are those who have and those that.....

Cloud Cutter 23rd Sep 2019 08:08
Originally Posted by BuzzBox (Post 10576757)
A ‘CONFIG GEAR’ EICAS warning is generated if the landing gear is not down and locked and one of the following occurs:
  • Below 800 feet radio altitude and a thrust lever is at idle, or
  • The flaps are in a landing position
A GPWS Mode 4A warning ‘TOO LOW GEAR’ is triggered at 500 ft RA.
Thanks for that info. Does the system on the 787 not use envelope modulation for mode 4? My understanding is that this is standard on all new Honeywell EGPWS, so you should get ‘TOO LOW, GEAR’ at 500 ft above the runway, rather than 500 ft RA.

ACMS 23rd Sep 2019 09:22
Originally Posted by Global Aviator (Post 10576814)
Well the system worked and caught a fook up. They somehow no doubt managed to do the before landing checklist without confirming all items. We have all seen variations of this no doubt. I heard of someone in a 320 do the same thing

I’d say that they didn’t do the Landing checklist at all.....
”✔️ LANDING GEAR.......DOWN“ is a sensed item isn’t it? It wouldn’t have been green ticked and they wouldn’t get CHECKLIST COMPLETE. So unless the ECL was inoperative then they simply didn’t do the Landing checklist at that point.

Outtahere 23rd Sep 2019 19:27
'Checklists are only for the inexperienced pilots'. Heard on the flight deck of one rather large Asian carrier from a Check Capt. They then proceeded to commence taxi with the NWS off (Airbus OEB had it switched off for pushback at the time).

BuzzBox 23rd Sep 2019 23:57
Originally Posted by Cloud Cutter (Post 10576945)


Thanks for that info. Does the system on the 787 not use envelope modulation for mode 4? My understanding is that this is standard on all new Honeywell EGPWS, so you should get ‘TOO LOW, GEAR’ at 500 ft above the runway, rather than 500 ft RA.


I'm not sure - Honeywell says that envelope modulation is used at certain locations to either expand the Mode 4 envelope for improved alerting, or to desensitise it to prevent nuisance alerts. However, the only Boeing reference I can find says that envelope modulation lowers the radio altitude limits to prevent nuisance alerts.

cooperplace 24th Sep 2019 11:35
I've made mistakes with pre-landing checklists (ie, forgot). Only those who've never made a mistake while flying should criticize.

Cloud Cutter 24th Sep 2019 12:34
Originally Posted by BuzzBox (Post 10577763)
I'm not sure - Honeywell says that envelope modulation is used at certain locations to either expand the Mode 4 envelope for improved alerting, or to desensitise it to prevent nuisance alerts. However, the only Boeing reference I can find says that envelope modulation lowers the radio altitude limits to prevent nuisance alerts.
Classic Boeing, dumbing down the manual to what we ‘need to know’ :8


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