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-   -   Are the minimum hours in the right hand seat dropping? (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/619870-minimum-hours-right-hand-seat-dropping.html)

Dick Smith 27th Mar 2019 05:11

Are the minimum hours in the right hand seat dropping?
 
There are claims around that because of the decline in general aviation, Australian airlines – of say, 29 pax and more – are putting pilots in the right hand seat with lower and lower total time.

Does anyone have any evidence of this?

Are there any minimums set and are there any examples (either in Australia or overseas) where low total time pilots are in the right hand seat of quite a large aircraft?

Any discussion would be really helpful.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE 27th Mar 2019 05:17

Jetstar Cadet program. RHS of an A320 with 200hrs total time.

zanthrus 27th Mar 2019 05:38

FARK that is crazy, lunacy. SO glad I don't fly One Star.

Ollie Onion 27th Mar 2019 05:41

Why is that crazy, many airlines all over the world put 200 hour cadets into the right hand seat with no issues.

Dick Smith 27th Mar 2019 05:42

Does that mean we no longer need a GA charter or Airwork industry in Australia to feed pilots to the Airlines?

Cloud Cutter 27th Mar 2019 05:51

That very situation (200 hr FO in a medium jet) has been quite common in many countries for many years, as I'm sure Dick will be aware. Hours flown is only one of many aspects pertaining to a pilot's suitability to join an airline. A well trained 200 hr pilot who has completed an appropriate integrated course may well be more suitable than say a 3,000 hour bush pilot or instructor. Of course, you need very competent and experienced training captains, but the risks are quite manageable.

Here's an example of an integrated ATPL course provider, and the airlines who hire their graduates: L3 Airline Academy

mppgf 27th Mar 2019 05:52

So Zanthrus, Why is it that you don't fly Jetstar ?

*Lancer* 27th Mar 2019 05:54


Originally Posted by Ollie Onion (Post 10430951)
Why is that crazy, many airlines all over the world put 200 hour cadets into the right hand seat with no issues.

You can add:

Virgin Australia Cadet Program
Qantas Cadet Program (when it was running) and the Qantas Pilot Academy (when it starts)
Rex Cadet Pilot
QantasLink Trainee First Officer and the Qantas Group Future Pilot Program (Dash 8)

These represent most airline pilot roles in Australia and have all been in operation for many years.


gordonfvckingramsay 27th Mar 2019 06:05


Does that mean we no longer need a GA charter or Airwork industry in Australia to feed pilots to the Airlines?
Not according to our airlines. The push for sausage factories...sorry.....academies is a clear indication of this.

The belief that low time pilots in the right hand seat OS are safe simple because of a lack of problems doesn’t mean it’s safe, it just means the latent threats have not become evident. I’ve flown with many very low hour pilots and most are good but the bad ones are an absolute threat, they are full of classroom “wisdom”, but lack the sensibilities that come from time away from the comfort of the flying school.

We we need a GA industry.

Captain Sherm 27th Mar 2019 06:10

Been going successfully for years Dick. Decades. In many first second and third world countries. Its been done here for years. Its all a function of training. Just as it was 75 years ago when my dad was given command of a Lancaster with but 300 hours.

Minimums for all seats in the cockpit are set in Part 61. It was open to public consultation.

As as far as I know no link proved beteeen RHS hours and overall safety. The opposite has been shown often. Two very experienced pilots each assuming the other knows what he/she is doing.

if the real barrow you’re pushing is Death of GA =Victory by Evil CASA = Less Safe Airlines. Sorry Dick. Once again you’re out of your depth and wrong.

Dick Smith 27th Mar 2019 06:19

Captain. No. It is not a barrow I am pushing.

I simply wanted the facts.

Are there any independent Aussie owned flying schools that do the full 200 hours and get pilots straight into the Airlines?

What does it cost the student - any government help?

Wizofoz 27th Mar 2019 06:25

Been exactly this way in most of the world for decades. The idea that flying a Cessna round the bush is the only way to prepare people to be Airline pilots is anachronistic baloney.

Not saying experience GA guys don't make good airline pilots, as do experienced service pilots.

But taking someone from scratch and specifically educating and training them for the job they will actually be doing also produces a capable pilot- as the thousands of examples in Europe show.

More than one way to skin a cat and just because "we didn't do it that when I was a lad" doesn't make it less effective.

Global Aviator 27th Mar 2019 06:28

Look at the USA... 1500hr requirement...

Now what would happen in Oz if the same?

The only thing I don’t like about 200hr schemes is airlines that don’t have extensive systems in place and the cadet logs PICUS for his command time, 3000 hrs later - CPT. Ok maybe not in Oz but not to far away.

As had been done for years done properly it’s not an issue at all.

Still would never want to swap the GA days for anything.

The future is however different.

Capn Bloggs 27th Mar 2019 06:31


Why is that crazy, many airlines all over the world put 200 hour cadets into the right hand seat with no issues.
I don't know whether the rellos of the Ethiopian pax would agree...

The Bullwinkle 27th Mar 2019 07:23


Originally Posted by Ollie Onion (Post 10430951)
Why is that crazy, many airlines all over the world put 200 hour cadets into the right hand seat with no issues.

No issues??? :ugh:

decostyle 27th Mar 2019 07:39


Originally Posted by Dick Smith (Post 10430968)
I simply wanted the facts.

Are there any independent Aussie owned flying schools that do the full 200 hours and get pilots straight into the Airlines?


Yes

Originally Posted by Dick Smith (Post 10430968)
What does it cost the student - any government help?

$100,000-$150,000. Government Vet-Fee help loans to the maximum allowable. balance paid by student, airline loan, bond etc depending on the program.

wheels_down 27th Mar 2019 07:48

Didn’t a 20 yr old someone drag a bus tail down 27 at Melbourne on the first ever takeoff?


hoss 27th Mar 2019 07:49

About 20 years ago you needed about 5000 hours to get an interview with a regional. Being offered a right seat in a Saab felt like a lotto win!

Today a 5000 hour pilot would be in the right seat of a jet close to command.

I think 20 years ago the Austronaut factor was a lot higher and I mean no disrespect to this.

downwind 27th Mar 2019 08:26

The fact is the hours are dropping globally...

Just take a look at links from a sampling of global operators,

Airlines Ryan Air, Easy jet have been taking people from 200 hour integrated courses and putting them in the right hand seat of a transport category aircraft.

It is all about the quality and thoroughness of the airlines flight school and training program, hours might help a bit and overall finesse of the pilot that comes with 'prior' experience before moving to the left hand seat, BUT it really is down to selection, quality and discipline of the training.

https://careers.ryanair.com/pilots-requirements/ refer cadet section

becomeapilot.easyjet.com

Tankengine 27th Mar 2019 08:30

Hours in the right seat are dropping in Qantas as F/Os are getting commands after years of stagnation.
longhaul average F/Os probably dropping from around 18000 hours down to 14-15000! SHOCK, HORROR! ;)


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