Union representation let down
 

Is there an Aussie union out there who would like to represent a couple of hundred pilots? AFAP and the TWU can put their hands down......apparently it's quite ok to pick and choose the most "winnable" battles despite there being a very clear set of EBA clauses not being adhered to. The only alternative left for an aggrieved pilot is to take the company on by themselves and live in hope that their chosen representatives will be there to pick up the pieces. Black and white cases where pilots are at a disadvantage and the response is as weak as a glass of water, or worse still nothing at all, and always to the detriment of the members. Membership dues paid in good faith but very little support or consultation in return, disgraceful!!

This is not a go at individuals or airlines in any way, it is a very big go at inwardly focused unions who expect pilots to represent themselves and do most of the dirty work.

No VH-FTS but interesting that you feel that way about them in relation to that particular operator, I thought it was just us being let down.

Change Management, an example:

Multiple pilots having grievances with EBA compliance and/or interpretation that was not in the spirit of the negotiated clause, which in some cases was clarified prior to the EBA going to the vote and is now being reneged on. The position of one union is along the lines of "if you don't like it, get on the committee". Pilots have been paying this particular union very generous sums of money only to be told that the unions hands are tied unless the pilots fight the breach themselves. There are pilots spending significant amounts of their private time doing the work of their union. Ironic that a union would promote free labour don't you think.

The union involved was asked prior to the commencement of the EBA if they had allocated any resources to ensure a smooth transition of the new EBA (for both the pilots and the airline) and the reply was effectively "don't stress, we got this". So I'm told most of the Pilot Council and the Senior Officer of the union were on leave when the EBA came into force, god knows what the other union were doing. Individuals (pilots) who had nominated as independent reps were the only source of quasi legal backing when their colleagues were short changed. When the matter of poor union support was escalated to people higher up in the union, the official position from the union was that there is no real right to a service from the union per se.

I wonder what my union dues are being used for, if not to protect member rights

I’d rather this not be an airline bashing thread, there are plenty of those, this is all about the way we pilots are being “represented” by the publicly available unions. As I said in my earlier post though, it is interesting that it’s not limited to the members in my organization.

Long time observer, just joined.
From my past experience (now semi retired) Airline Co's love to divide & conquer, this is one thing they love to see, disputes between the troops & the unions that are meant t represent them, it always works in the Co's favor sadly:-)
I hope you guys can stick to your guns, LCC's, greedy CEO's etc all mean the troops are getting further & further down the food chain!

Good luck

Defred

Did you read GWhizz's posts?

As one of the original architects of a Pilot Association and its relationship with its representing Union, I can shed some light on how it works.

The pilot groups association does all the real work. Those issues that are raised by pilot members with the association, usually through its own members website or portal and end up on a list. From there the committee seeks to determine does the issue have support.

The issues on that list are broken into two groups, must haves and nice to have.

The must haves must be supported by a better than 2/3 majority of the membership, while the nice to haves only a majority.

The percentage of support for those matters are normally a closely guarded secret, in some cases even from the committee itself. The reason for that is that if a must have issue is or will be unpopular with the company, then they will actively attempt to lobby against the issue. We call that divide and conquer.

Nice to have issues are listed and an attempt is made to introduce them into the negotiation phase of the next EBA.

The Chairman of the Pilots Association is usually the Unions Delegate.

What the Union will not do:

Seek to represent an individual on Check and Training matters.

Use its Industrial Muscle for the benefit of individual members.

Use its Industrial muscle for nice to have issues.

What the Union will do:

Seek to represent the Pilot Group on industrial matters and EBA negotiations and apply if necessary its industrial muscle for Must have Issues.



Matters other than check and training issues that impact upon individual members are normally dealt with by the Pilot Groups Committee and its close working relationship with the company.

Regardless of any issue, the Committee and the Union must always act in the best interests of the greater majority of its pilot group or membership.

For some time now, in Oz anyway, a Pilot's union with Industrial Muscle has been nothing more than a euphemism.
Sorry if that sounds pessimistic.

It’s been many years since Industrial Muscle has been seen in Australia. Every Union has muscle, it only needs the full support of its membership in order to use it. That said it must still be used Responsibly and Justly. It should never be them and us.

The next display of serious industrial muscle we’ll see is when the average Australians power (electricity) gets switched off because we can’t afford it. It will trigger a chain of events not seen in this country since the 70’s and I’m thinking it’s not all that far away.

This generation of Australians for the first time will see for themselves what Industrial muscle is.

Derfred your response sounds all too familiar.

I can tell you quite categorically that dozens of my colleagues volunteer their time to resolve, not mine, but everybody's problem. The problem is not a lack of work being put into resolving them, but a lack of uptake by the unions once the work is done. In short, the unions have been a dead end. on many matters.

It is galling when a problem is identified by a pilot, all direct channels for a correction are exhausted and refused by the airline and the union deems it "only a minor issue". You want examples: Allowances, DEC's and transfers, rostering breaches to name a few, black and white issues made grey by the union. The unions cannot even begin to conceive how many pilots dumped their union reps and nominated individuals for one recent EB negotiation. They may not have left the union completely as the insurance policy kept them there, but they voted with their feet when it came to their confidence (or lack of) in the union in question having the pilots best interests at heart during an EB negotiation.

Get Solar, problem solved..

It sounds to me that your pilot group is fractured. Your EBA doesn't help either. What may well be a black and white issue in your EBA may well not be enforceable in law.
For example, allowances are enforcable, DEC's and Transfers are not enforcable and if rostering breaches fall into the reasonable overtime category, again not enforceable. These are not things the unions created and whilst they have remained in the EBA's over the years, there's a fair argument they should'nt be. You can't go to war over an unenforceable issue

Berealgetreal, Solar power won't run your Heater or your Air-conditioner and if one can't afford the quarterly power bill how does one afford Solar. In any case a solar array that you paid for isn't there for your benefit it's there for the energy company's benefit. Think about what you produce and how much you are paid for it verses what you pay. Who really benefits.

However if the situation was flipped around and Pilots were flagrantly breaching an EBA on gray areas what do you think would happen?

I think there is a general feeling of frustration at the double standards held on EBA interpretation and the general lack of enforcement by Unions over EBA issues. This issue does not appear to be restricted to one particular Pilot Union and or Company either. It's all well and good to play the responsible union card and keep the peace but when things keep getting eroded over a long time at what point will action be taken? As you say if there are items in a EBA that aren't enforceable then what's the point?

Well that has been the case since the Howard Governments Work Choices came into effect. at the time most of the original Award Clauses were left in the new EBA's on the belief that when a Labor Government is elected they will throw it out, they did, but it didn't go far enough. Back then what was fought for, thrashed out in Tribunals and the Industrial Court, is now decided by a 25 year old office girl at Fair Work Australia. the Industrial Architecture in Australia is a mess and until it's fixed companies will continue to take advantage of it's employees. you can do yourselves a favour by removing from your EBA's all those issues that are not enforcable, that way you are not deluding yourselves and removing some of the confusion.

I can't imagine that there is a single clause in your EBA that a pilot can flagrantly breach.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...59beb711ad0788

I have a lot of respect for anyone in a trade.....but wish I was earning $288, 500 pa.

Personally I would like the CMFMMEU representing me.....not only would that supply super strong Representation, but also enable direct representation to the Future Govt of Australia, and also present Govt of QLD. Seriously...nice guys lose, time to join the other side.

And being a vowel, A for Aviation can fit there in quite a few spots.

Long live the memory of Norm.

Couldn't agree with you more Whizz. Unfortunately it's not just Airlines and Pilots, it's right across the board in every industry. It is the current state of our industrial architecture. Be at least grateful you are a permanent full time employee. If the Company had it's way you would be casual and or working for a labour hire company on contract.That is something that almost didn't get changed after Work Choices.

Also agree with you entirely, it is indeed a castle built on sand, almost an illusion until the Industrial Architecture is fixed properly. Only a Labor Government can fix it and only then if they need to. It was Bob Hawkes Labor Government that destroyed the nation’s pilot union in the first place and John Howards Liberal Government that destroyed the nation’s Industrial Architecture.
On top of that the Nation doesn’t see pilots as average Australians and for just under half the Industry, we are not.
Contrary to popular belief, the Labor Party is not full of Unionists and is not controlled by the Unions, the same as they do not control your Pilot Group, despite its heavily weighted union membership.
When you say pick and choose their battles, it’s a case of can only fight the enforceable ones for which there are not many. Leave provisions, those that are set in law. Pay, Allowances, harassment and that’s about it.
When your kids leave school and enter the workforce for the first time, then you will truly understand how bad it really is.

Xeptu,
Whatever koolaid you are quaffing, please lets us know.
The Labor Party was created by the union movement, all but a handful of current Labor parliamentarians, whether Commonwealth or State, are ex-union officials/staffers, Labor is largely financed by unions, and unions completely dominate State and Federal conferences. Rank and file members ( a threatened species) hardly get a real lookin.
The present Fair Work Act is a piece of Labor legislation.
Look up the history of why Shorten is opposition leader, and not Albo.
Tootle pip!!

"Contrary to popular belief, the Labor Party is not full of Unionists and is not controlled by the Unions"

Not sure that the Labor party is not full of "unionist", but It was reported that in 2016 45% of the ALP members of parliament were former Union OFFICIALS. At that point it was estimated that only 15% of the workforce were members of a Union.

And whilst the public probably brush of the tactics of the more militant Union actions within the building industry etc, it does not really affect them, thus no real outcry, whereas if there was a repetition of "The Event of 1989", the public would demand hangings as it would impinge of their perceived rights.

Just saying...

I believe the lack of strength of 'unions' stems wholly from the western world's addiction to debt. The main aim of everyone starting a career (I believe) should be to set about equaling their income from independent means as soon as possible. What people tend to do is go on the big holiday, buy the car, boat, big house and as soon as they have done that they are 'owned' by their employer completely. I rang the union during the lockout and suggested no-one should return to work (for whatever reason) until Joyce was gone and sensible management installed. The answer I got was that it was a good idea, but very few would be able to exist without their salary for any time at all. I responded I felt we couldn't afford NOT to.

You load up yourself with debt laden trinkets and you can expect to have that situation used against you. Legislation is a certainly a factor, but it couldn't be used the way it has been by the truly abominable and incompetent management of Qantas if people didn't 'need' their Joyce sanctioned salary. Relying on the generosity (not to mention business acumen) from the likes of Joyce is an exercise in abject stupidity!

Agree, simply turn the phone off and go for a well earned break, Mr Joyce would have been gone in a week.

Wombat,
I call your attention to Qantas FSO Admin 062/11 which states, inter alia, all employees covered by EBA 8, that's us pilots, will be locked out.
Pretty clear to us at the time mate. Crewing told me at my 15/4 to not turn up.

Pilots were never locked out. I wonder how some people can even taxi an aircraft or take one off, let alone land one, if they cant understand the nuances of their contract and the industrial mechanisms of ensuring its integrity.

What happened to the AFAP? It was very effective in my day, the sixties.

It lost my job for me in the eighties.