Was it not the case that vertical promotion was only restricted for the initial 8 787s?
Vertical promotion remains restricted on A380/747 SO to FO.
SO pay is so low on the 787 that it makes it well worth a move to 737 so can’t see anyone hanging around on the 787 as an SO.
Heard from a manager that Qantas 787 tech crew costs are less than half that of a US airline crew given they have
2 CPTs and 2 FOs on long haul routes and are paid more in rank also.

No, albeit that was a common misconception. There was a blanket restriction on all promotion (SO -> FO and FO -> Capt) for the first 4 787’s however the vertical promotion restriction for SO’s is in the TACM and applies to all the 787’s (until they scrap the rule).

Whatever your feelings on the rule, I can’t think of a worse possible time to remove it than now. There are guys who will have been in the back seat and not landed a plane in 16 years (due in large part to the massive erosion in career opportunities caused by Qantas strategy) and may now move onto a type as FO where they might only do 1-2 landing a month! How do you consolidate your training and get comfortable flying again under those circumstances?

This push to scrap the rule is cynical penny pinching.

When the ban on vertical promotion came in, you couldn’t promote to FO 744 because of the sector lengths and low landings per month. You could, however, promote to the classic 743 and do endless blank/reserve. After your training freeze period you could then go to the 744. :hmm:

bullcrap! Most of the long time s/o’s Are highly experienced and would be offended by your concerns! I am. Pull your head in.

Il add my two bobs worth. The 737 contract is at the moment so bad compared to long haul that the company struggles to get SOs to bid over there hence by banning vertical promotion they are forced there , the draw back from this is the current scenario where they stay for as short a time as possible and hence the training system can’t cope. I have flown with a number of x Virgin 737 FOs and there is no way they were going back to domestic flying.

With a 744 S/O RIN likely in the medium term perhaps lifting the vertical promotion prohibitin is about enticing some of the long term S/Os into the front of a 787 instead of displacing to S/O A380? I haven’t looked at the 744 S/O list to see how many that could apply to.

To many for the companies liking I would suggest.

Add in the FOs and Capts who can also RIN to the 380 and Houston we have a problem.

Not as many as you’d think. Only 30-35 Captains. I haven’t looked at F/O numbers though I’d suspect they’d be similar.

Of those 86 others ruprecht, have you looked at where the crossover is? IE most senior displaces most junior, next most senior displaces second most junior, etc. At some stage there is a crossover and the 744 S/O can’t displace anyone.

No, I just gave it a quick glance. But if they RIN in stages remember that only those named in a RIN can displace. Is it possible that someone named in a RIN displaces another SO, only to be displaced themselves when someone more senior than them gets named?

The 380 SO list is down from 125 this roster to 115 next roster so I wouldn’t be surprised if some more A380 SO positions are advertised/awarded.

Yes. That’s possible. It’s also why I’d be stunned if they did multiple RINs for exactly that reason.

Actually, a RIN of those they know don’t have seniority to displace could be on the cards. After that though multiple RINs cause significant additional pain. That’s why I reckon only one big RIN for Captains and F/Os and multiple RINs for S/Os only if they will avoid the scenario you’ve high lighted.

For Captains even the most junior can displace off the 380.
I agree there wil be only one RIN.

Many 747 Captains will go with the aircraft, some will go on year 4 money to the 787 in both Sydney and Brisbane. IMO probably about 20 might go to the 380.

With all the talk of RIN, what if Qantas puts all the new 787s in Sydney, turn around and say no reduction in numbers, here are the redeployment vacancies you can bid for, what happens then? Cause that seems a lot cheaper than doing all these extra training courses.

I was responding to Keg’s earlier post, in the context of only RINing those too junior to displace. - there are no 747 Captains that junior. If there is only one RIN (as we suspect) then it is just as you say.

I think Keg was referring to the junior 744 SOs.

Anyway, it’s going to be an interesting process.

Can you displace another from an aircraft already declared to be in surplus?

goose1, rather than being offended why don’t you articulate what part of my post was “bullcrap”?

Are we to assume that you were such a good pilot when you joined that a 15 year break from takeoffs and landings will not in anyway have dulled your skills? Well good for you. I wish I could say the same but my extended stay in the back seat made my promotional training harder than it otherwise would have been and I have been glad for the many sectors since then to get back up to speed.

Yes. RM 18.1.12.e.(iii). The EA makes no distinction as to where you can displace to or whether the category you’re displacing has been declared surplus.

You may be thinking of the return from LWOP provision (Scedule 1,Part C) which talks about not coming back to a category in surplus. So a pilot returning from LWOP is unable to go to (say) F/O 744 even if their seniority would permit it if it creates a surplus.

ok, your reference to take off and landing! And, that vertical promotion is a threat!
the main area that diminishes is in flight management ( if you allow yourself to get a bit lazy)!
a focused mindset and normal training (which has improved immensely in QF) is all you need for a successful transition!

In my opinion it would be a good thing to once again allow vertical promotion as there are a lot of highly experienced people who have been Rinned or held back due to their own circumstances, and would find it a refreshing change to be able to move to their desired position without arbitrary obstacles in the way.

How is it possible that the words ‘pilot’ and ‘15 year break from takeoffs and landings’ are even in the same sentence? Rediculous!

You managed it. :hmm:

In short, the answer is:

• Nil recruiting for a long while.
• Seniority, which leads to:
• Lifestyle, and
• Money

I hear what you say, and Qantas would love that - but what if nobody bids for that redeployment? 😛

You can only offer redeployment positions as part of a RIN.

If what youre saying is that Qantas simply advertises the 787 slots and says nothing to the 744 drivers then they’ll still need to eventually do a RIN. The 744 drivers are under no compulsion to bid for those slots- and why would they given they’d go to year 1 pay when they can wait for the RIN and go to year 4 pay.

The real question is how do you keep flying 4-6 744s until the end of 2020 whilst simultaneously taking delivery of the last of the 787s? One way is to run divisors on the 787 and A380 close to maximum in the lead up to the 744 retirement so that RIN’d 744 drivers then retraining to those types don’t create too much of a surplus. I suspect more likely is additional 787 orders for arrival from late 2020 through 2021 on which the now surplus 744 drivers can go to. Some will obviously still exercise their right to displace to the A380.

Well given the current high rate of SO->A330 FO training failures it would appear that the normal training is not quite cutting it.

On the subject of rinned pilots, they are not effected by vertical promotion restrictions. The TCAM states; To be​ eligible​ for the​ rank​ of​ A380,​ B747​ or B787​ First​ Officer, the​ pilot​ must​ have​ operated as​ a ​First​ Officer on another Company​ aircraft​ e.g. B737​ or​ A330.​ ​
So if they have been demoted from FO previously then they will not be prevented from promoting to the 787,747 or 380.