Airline Seniority Question
 

You got a start with Ansett or TAA, in the swinging 70’s on the Fokker F27, could you stay as an FO on that type until you got a command on the F27?

Likewise if you finished up as a B727 FO, could you stay as an FO on that type until a command on that type was available?

Or did you have to start back on the F27, and then into the Diesel 9?

Yes, Yes, No.

Does QF allow vertical promotion these days? Or do you have to go domestic first before getting in the RHS of a wide body?

Vertical promotion generally not available for S/O in QF on A380, B744 or B787.

The exception is a RIN’d ex 767 F/O less than five years ago. More than five years and the normal restrictions apply. That’s today anyway.

Hi Keg,
Heard there is presently a senior F/O on the 747 about to start initial Command training on that aircraft.

Good point. Have amended accordingly. Not sure if they allow F/O A380 to initial command 380 either. They didn’t once upon a time.

A while ago it changed. SO to FO no vertical promotion, FO to Captain allowed.
One 747 FO and one A380 FO with command spots on their aircraft.

In Ansett in the 70"s, most FO's started on the F27, just a few perhaps on the DC4/Carvair fleet. Seniority dictated everything, you could bid for other types (DC9 and/or B727) as these aircraft offered different (better?) lifestyles and, given the weight/speed formula, paid better. When you'd achieved enough seniority for a command (about 8 years' service in the 70's) and if you wanted one straight away, then your choice was the F27 and (by that time) the L188. The airline wanted all initial commands to be done on the F27, but this idea fell into disfavour. If you wanted to do your initial command on the DC9 you could, but you'd have to wait until there was no-one senior to you bidding for this. The F27 had a rather dire reputation (a lot of failed commands), so some preferred to wait for the perceived easier DC9. You then worked your way up through the types again. Some preferred to stay on a "junior" type (F27) but as your seniority increased you'd have better control of your lifestyle.
I joined Ansett in 1969 on the F27, was "drafted" onto the DC4/Carvair a year later, after a year returned to the F27, then flew the DC9 and B727. After nearly 8 years in total I returned to the F27 as a captain.
Times to command in TAA were much longer, for a variety of reasons, while in the subsidiaries (MMA, ASA and ANSW) you simply "changed seats" as they only operated a single type.

Seniority is a very expensive system...

Usually a comment written by someone who was quite junior in the system.

Having subsequently worked for an East Asian airline that gave lip service to seniority (but in reality it meant nothing) and having seen the justifiable angst that caused I know which I preferred.

With apologies to Winston Churchill :
“ Seniority is the worst form of promotional choice , except for all the others.”

At the end of the day , you still have to produce the goods and jump through the hoops set in order to pass.

TBM.
Why do you say its" a very expensive system"?
Wunwing

It can be a bit like musical chairs when seniority creates a number of moves including training on new types and base changes... company has to pay!

But it is fair and transparent - way more preferable to the proverbial backside licking variety of alternatives which has it's own set of costs with an unhappy, unstable workforce with more staff turnover...

Better the company pays than the pilots! ;)

Yep only junior crew, older contract Pilots with command time or people that just don’t know anything about it that complain about seniority.

It’s actually good for the company as well, in many ways.

It works reasonably well at most airlines, except when Cadets with less than the minimum required time get awarded commands, do 400-500 hours of command training to make up for their lack of hours and Hog all the training resources for 6-12 months.

That's because those airlines obviously haven't got any prerequisites prior to appointing the candidate to the command position.

In my experience seniority only guarantees you a shot at a command once you met the command minimum requirements. If you don't meet the minimums you cool your heels until you do.

I believe it was ever thus in most airlines. Basic requirement was senior licence, type rating, seniority, suitability and hours, sometimes a type rating could be a part of the command training. Letting somebody hold a command slot when 4 to 5 hundred hours short is, to me, quite incredible.

It's great until your airline collapses from under you. When that happens, the older & more experienced you are, the more difficult your circumstances become. Unless, of course, you are happy to commute to Asia.