Qantas RAAF
 

Heard a rumour today that Qantas were going to review their intake of RAAF pilots?

With an eye to what ? Hiring more of 'em...fewer ? Status of the ones they've already got ?

Sorry RAAFies
 

I spent many years in the RAAF and many in QANTAS. One thing has always happened every time that QANTAS has recruited. The RAAF HR morons finally realise that they haven’t planned for attrition and get caught with their collective pants down. It’s as predictable as night and day. Also predictably they run crying to Qantas and blame them for their predicament and beg them to leave their pilots alone.

Well, it’s happened again.

RAAF (don’t know who) met with Qantas (HOBO and HR) earlier this week. The Chief Pilot confirmed to the new starters this week that Qantas will be a “good corporate citizen in not decimating the RAAF numbers all at once”.

My analysis is what this means in reality is that we will limit the number of ex RAAF pilots in any intake. IE We won’t take 10 RAAFies in a 12 pilot intake one month and then another 10 the next. We are more likely to still take those 20 but only over (say) 5 months rather than two.

Maybe Qantas have agreed to not more than a particular percentage per intake? Who would know. At the end of the day we need pilots and so I expect being a good corporate citizen only goes so far when you’re about to start grounding jets through lack of crew.

One things certain. The RAAF HR morons are even more hopeless than our HR morons.

Qantas HR morons don't realise it takes 2 months to convert a pilot from one type to another, more for a promotional course. Hence the maximum divisors.

The RAAF HR morons can't fathom it takes 18 months, minimum, to train a pilot off the street. Another 3-4 months for conversion. More for a knucklehead. They still think they can take them off the street and have them piloting an F18 overnight. After all that's all it takes it their world. Add to that their insistence in quotas of female candidates while rejecting male candidates purely on sexist policies and is it any wonder they’re in a pickle.

I’d be telling them to get stuffed if I were Qantas HR.

you gotta hand it to HR: they somehow manage to paint themselves as indispensable, when in fact they are completely useless.

yeah, don't know what the RAAF HR are thinking if they think they can get women to fly aircraft, ****!

Don’t let this thread degenerate into another affirmative action slanging match.

If you knew anything about the RAAFs policy in this matter though you wouldn’t make such a comment.

Kindly keep to the subject.

Without wishing to start a thread drift, do females have a higher scub rate in the RAAF?

No, I don’t think so. Not historically anyway.

There are less of them because there are less recruited. There are less recruited because there are less interested in the job in the first place.

Women make as good a pilot as men, no question.

Now. Back on topic.

Apparently almost 1/2 the RAAF QFI's out of ROSO (mostly at the SQNs not at the Schools) have yes letters, just waiting for starts!

Some even with ROSO but that's another story!

I don't think it's that much. Asking around it looks like roughly only one or two ex military guys on a course atm. Most of the new starts seem to be from within the group, other airlines, cadets or GA. I'd guess no more than 10% are ex-RAAF.

Besides if that theory's true and they have to wait a few months to get a start is it that big of a deal? I know about relative seniority but there's thousands of qualified pilots out there who want the job, they'll just have to wait in line like everyone else.

True.

The other fly in the ointment is the requirement to give 3 months notice.

In my time a lot of RAAFies faced with a hold file letter from Qantas would resign immediately so they were available at short notice should Qantas call.

You might find a lot of these guys have done just that. Resigning en masses would certainly send a shock wave through the establishment.

RAAF recruiting is, and has always been, 180 degrees out of phase with demand.

Yes.

At the moment anyway.

The squadrons have been hurting for people lately, considering that they’re bringing in ROSO for conversions now just to hold onto people it isn’t looking any better.

Been a few companies that have had a whinge to Qantas HR about pinching to many pilots, over the years.

Know a guy that missed out a job with a NSW based regional airline, company he was leaving whinged about all the money they had spent endorsing on a turboprop. Fortunately for him he got into Ansett a few months later.

Has increasing ROSO ever worked for them. I know of a number of people who walked out of conversion courses when they suddenly attracted an obligation that they hadn't had previously. It brought their departure dates forward, not the other way around.

Equally, I wonder if it has ever been tested in court. The application has always been haphazard.

Ask the RAAF pilot who was recently court marshaled and sentenced to jail for leaving while under ROSO!

The fact that people are willing to risk that speaks volumes though...

Would that count as a criminal conviction that would prevent them from holding an ASIC ?

Turn it up mate! Name one HR 'moron' you know that thinks that. What are they supposed to do? I know its reactionary but you can't blame HR for speaking with QANTAS to slow the exodus - its obviously so they have a chance to train guys to fill the coming shortfall. Fair enough too I'd say. I'm no fan of the RAAFs personnel management but its pretty difficult to screen, recruit and train in anticipation of QANTAS recruiting. Correct me if I'm wrong but its unlikely that QANTAS tells the RAAF anything of its recruitment plans. Same thing happened in 87-88. However, I've always been of a mind that the RAAF suffers from a retention problem not a recruitment problem so if anything the 'HR morons' are looking at the wrong end of the career spectrum.

IsDon,

Remarkable similarity to how the USA does it. There's a thread in Ts&E where I've posted a running series of articles about the plight of the USAF in particular. They've formed USAF-airline panels and committees to "study" a solution.

None is forthcoming yet; I predict none will be.

I'd bet money the airlines here are thinking what you say in the last sentence above. All very entertaining.

Agree with most of you post CS, but well before external apps openend I heard that there was indeed formal communication of the impending recruitment drive and that ADF aircrew would be targeted among the mix of recruits. As a matter of courtesy.

Don't ask me to feel sorry for any of the muppets in career and personnel management. These problems are entirely of their own doing. Guys that joined from 2010 onwards are on a pay scheme that has them earning massively less each year then their mates that joined prior. Add in the various retention schemes (MSBS ect) that they can't be a part of either and you're talking about a pay differential of 30-40% (depending on rank). T&Cs have gone only one way globally, yet in the ADF they've gone backwards. The majors commenced recruiting more than a year ago, what has HR done to prevent the wholesale destruction of its workforce? Let's not even get started on the recruiting issues they have. The ADF has become a stepping stone, not a career.

I don't know whether there was direct talks initially but QF certainly telegraphed it's intention to recruit when they announced the 787 order championing the 170 new pilots they'd need.

Now we're likely to take on significantly more than 170 given the increased hours on all fleets but the notice was there. We actually started recruiting about 9 months later.

I predict there will be yet another survey to determine why RAAF pilots are leaving.
RAAF recruiting will ramp up.
The airlines will stop recruiting.
There will be a surplus of RAAF pilots.
RAAF recruiting will slow down.
Airline recruiting will ramp up.
RAAF pilots will leave.

There will be another survey... :hmm:

"The RAAF, a better start to your career."

Wasn't that the recruiting slogan in the 90's? :D

Why would anyone want to join the RAAF?

I can think of one solitary young pilot or wannabe out of many many I’ve met who considered Air Force who is now doing a cadetship anyway.

Shocking these people want to turn the defence force into a social experiment then wonder why people aren’t keen on joining or staying.

patty, I don't understand what you're saying?

When you finally understand how MSBS works you have to wonder why anyone would want to leave the RAAF. The grass is not always greener. Airline flying is doing the same hour of flying over and over and over again. It would even make C130 flying look exciting.

Well if that’s your attitude can you please save us all the hassle and stay in the Air Force. Plenty of young civilian trained pilots who’s career dream is to become airline captains who wouldn’t find it boring at all. At least they’ll appreciate the opportunity they have been given.

Mmmm, never thought of it that way flying Hercs around New Guinea.

Same with RAF over here in UK. Poor pay compared to airlines, away accommodation substandard, poor scheduling, and aircrew shortages appearing.
A relative of mine a Transport Capt., converted to the Voyager A330 Tanker /Transport couple of years ago.The conversion training here done by a civilian contractor with ex airline trainers, to the Airbus civil standard syllabus. On completion of the RAF conversion, if you complete the ALTP exams you get issued with the Airbus A330/350 Civil type rating.
Quite an incentive to leave the RAF.
British Airways in the last year or so has had a large recruitment programme 300+ new entrants. My relative straight onto the BA A380, with on day one a higher salary. And more of her RAF colleagues with heavy jet experience, onto the B744/777/787,
A no brainer , and big problem for RAF retention.

2 bites with the one bait.

Nice work don...

Thanks ruprecht, I do try my best. I hope you are doing well.

I stand by it though, if I known back then what I know now, my choice would have been different.

dr dre, I understand what you are saying. It is a shame some of these guys will never know what flying without an autopilot is all about.

Chronic Snoozer, I guess you mean that dreaded Madang approach? Real PNG flying was done by that tactically flown, radial powered twin :)

Yeah, the one without autopilot.

MSBS is indeed a generous scheme. For me it was a choice between desk jobs, PERS management and politics for the last 20 years of my career or keep flying in an airline without all of that stuff and have some more time to enjoy life. RAAF flying was very good and exciting but it just does not last.

100% agree with you mate! I was more than happy to leave an MSBS retention benefit and the super scheme itself on the table to come over civvy side. I have far more time for family fun, RAAF reserve work on the side and a chance to learn from the guys and girls who have done the GA / regional work prior to coming to mainline. It makes for a far better work life balance (oh the irony :O )


The idea of 20 years of desk jobs, politics and moving the family just isn't sustainable for most. Do what suits your circumstances, but mainline has proven to be a bloody good landing spot so far. As for the potential new pay deal in defence , there could be some large ramifications to MSBS $$. Awas the finance dept good ideas fairies!!

Good luck to all running the DP gauntlet

Yes, the RAAF spruiked on about the importance of a work/life balance and did little to convince me that they really gave a rat's about it...
But, on the whole, it was good for 15-odd years!
I think that any concerted efforts by the RAAF to stifle the outflow of pilots by making "deals" with airlines, will only have the effect of pi$$ing off those who are considering leaving anyway and may well encourage them!

Hey Dr Dre - if you knew Donpizmeov and what he has done in his career you would probably retract your comments. He is more than qualified to comment and in my view, he is spot on. Why I ever left the RAAF is beyond me. But I probably would put it down to lack of education on the super scheme. There are contemparies of mine leaving the RAAF now, in early 50s on a very good retirment income - 6 figures plus. Sure guys want to keep flying, but some of us are humble enough to admit in hindsight that the world of long days and long night sectors on the autopilot isnt the land of milk and honey we thought it to be.

BUT - each to their own, works for some, not for others. Each is entitled to their own view, and their own decision.

It's called nostalgia, and it ain't what it used to be... :)