I'm sure there will be a lot of interest among VA crews to head to QF, but let's not forget that QF still have a pretty stringent recruitment process to negotiate, and it's not just a case of draining one company's resource group to expand another.

People will apply, some will succeed and some will not. So i don't think it will be quite as simple as Tiger pilots, or VA for that matter, telling their company to shove it cause they're off to QF....they have to get in first!

I am intrigued at the prospect of QF potentially not having enough interest among its SO ranks to fill required vacancies on the 737 when people start moving around. Is that a possibility and does anybody have any idea what the company approach is in that example? Can they force people onto the 737 in reverse order of seniority?

Air NZ are currently experiencing the same... They cannot get SOs to go to the A320 as FOs. Guys joining off the street going straight in as FOs on the A320. I wouldn't be suprised if Qantas end up doing something similar.

Thanks Slezy9, I didn't know that.

Well then, interesting times ahead for everyone I guess!!

As I understand it, there isn't any requirement for QF mainline to fill vacancies with Qlink or JQ guys. QF isn't going to cost itself money by doing this if it doesn't have to. This is a shrewd business that has been around for donkeys years. They know what they are doing and they do it well. No fanfare, no carry on, it was seamless last few times I flew with them.

Those QF group 787's were bought at dirt cheap prices and there was also massive delay compensation to factor into the running costs. If you think QF are unstoppable now, just you wait til the 787/320NEO delivery starts!

Didn't know that about ANZ, I do know from a mate at CX that Direct Entry FO positions have started up again.

EK? It's crazy, they can't get anyone to go there anymore. Probably need to wake up to themselves a bit. More money in Asia, similar time zone AND days off are at home as opposed to less money and days off in the Middle East. Probably suited more to Ryanair type guys as the time zones and distances aren't as huge. Having said that it's not commutable from what I read.

ME airlines haven't realised that most guys have worked out that their money and conditions aren't as life changing as they were years ago. Life changing money is available in China, not the ME. Korean or China Southern a great example: big money and basically live anywhere in the world. A mate with a narrow body command and widebody FO time just picked up a 777 command with CSA and he's deciding which part of the world he wants to live in. Apparently you can also swap rosters and do one roster in Melbourne next in New York. Not sure how true that is.

The Longreach guys reckon the Chinese carriers haven't even started recruiting. What you see now is tip of the iceberg. He said conditions are rapidly improving. Reverse rostering, business class travel, command upgrade program for FO's and not to mention triple the take home pay of the Australian jobs. I guess the really big stumbling blocks for most guys are the medical and the uncertainty. Still seen as risky by many in my group. Having said that "fortune favours the brave"... And I've never been brave LOL!! I get less brave the bigger the family gets, single me would have been gone years ago.

Don't know much about the bond, but if you don't intend to leave it shouldn't worry you. Guess they are trying to protect themselves from a pilot doing the endorsement and resigning a week later for a job with Hainan. From that point of view I kind of get it.

I am interested to know why they (both Air NZ and Qantas) can't get SOs to go to FO on the short haul fleets? I would have thought a window seat and getting to actually do some Takeoffs and Landings would have been attractive, but obviously not...

Lifestyle, Slezy. I think on the 74/38 with QF the money is good but the 330 isn't. So 330 SO's tend to go across to the narrow body. Don't know about ANZ would assume the same. Not sure what the deal will be on the 78. I'm told from friends that were narrowbody FO's and moved up to widebody as FO's that narrowbody work is hard yakka compared to the long haul.

Had a mate was senior SO 74, did the MOU thing with a command at JQ. In the end went back to QF as an SO I think 380. Reckons similar money and a better life.

Perhaps both QF and Air NZ are paying SOs too much!

I find it hard to believe they would send a qf SO for a command at Jetstar. If so, there is something wrong with the system at Qantas.

Was a pretty senior guy, had FO narrowbody seniority from memory.

Most SOs are already highly experienced before they join the company. Most come from the military or regionals and all have a heap of command time.
If they weren't paid decent money they wouldn't hang around for 10-15 years waiting for a window seat. They arent inexperienced guys fresh off the street. If you want decent people to work for you, you need to pay them accordingly. They also give the company a vast pool of pilots who are already up to speed with the operation to upgrade when they are needed. In my opinion these guys aren't paid enough.
Anyway back to the original topic

In that case, pay short haul FOs more!

The reason QF 4-engine S/O's are paid close to narrow body captain pay is not for the reasons you describe. It's due to a long history of EBA's during which the pilots were clever enough to see the future of ULH ops out of Australia and negotiated generous "overtime" payments for flights over 12 hours. That is why the A330 pilots don't see such generous salaries.

It's a shame because career-wise, a few years in a window seat flying a narrow-body 50 sectors a month does wonders for one's flying skills and job satisfaction.

But many are not prepared to take the massive pay cut to do it. Some suffer later in their career when they don't make the grade for an upgrade because they've let their skills lapse irrecoverably. That is very sad, both for the individuals and the Company.

Personally, I don't get it. I became a pilot to be a pilot, not an S/O, and money takes a back seat. But statistics show that many don't share my outlook.

Most new S/O hires from this point on won't be on such generous terms (the B787 terms are different in overtime payments), so I guess we'll see if your argument holds weight with a lack of experienced pilots applying for QF.

There are two aspects to this.
1. Qantas group policy is that all vacancies are advertised within the group. Of course whether that will suit the powers that be if 9/10 QLink drivers apply to mainline is something that remains to be seen. So at this stage being in QLink may actually be an advantage.

2. If QF bias away from our own regionals then it's likely we'll simply lose those pilots somewhere else anyway- EK or the VOZ group. It may cost some $$$ in double training if we take regionals but we are likely to have to double train anyway if we don't take them.

I heard a rumour the other day that someone has pulled out of a 737 F/O slot. There were no S/Os with bids in for that slot to replace that pilot Not sure of what base it was. For one slot I suspect they'll just up the divisor by an hour. If it becomes more than one though....... say 10 or more? :eek:

The issue is that when there's been no recruiting for 7 1/2 years people have geared their pay, lifestyle, family, etc around what is now. They're in their early to mid 30s, kids, big mortgages, etc. Certainly going to the 737 for ex 767 F/Os (and now A380 S/Os) isn't particularly palatable. They're holding off for the A330 or 787.

The company can't force anyone to the 737. If they get desperate then what you may see is some of the crew starting from last Tuesday onwards may get a very early F/O slot. That said, many S/Os are senior to 737 F/Os and so maybe their won't be massive swathes of movement away from the 737 F/O ranks in the short term.

Interesting times.

The simple reason that QF can't force S/O's to the 737 is that despite them all being employed by the same company (QF mainline), the 737 operates under a different EBA. It is not legal to force an employee onto a different EBA. AIPA has previously proposed merging the EBAs but QF (probably due ideolgy and costs) has never been interested in even talking about the idea. So they are left with what they have created.

That said, the respective EBA's make it possible (in practice) for direct entry to B737 F/O. And best wishes to any who gain that. It's a great job (and career).

The latest TACM has added the 787 to the 744 and 380 requiring previous company FO time. SO's without previous company FO time will have to go to the 737 or 330.

ruprecht

Sure. Probably didn't make myself very clear that I was talking about ex 767 F/Os for those holding off for the 787.

Lot of junior 737 FO's and almost every SO at VA interested in applying for QF, not to mention displaced TT A320 drivers, VA Ejet & ATR crew.

Even if only a meagre amount make the cut at QF, what will be VA's response? They are losing talent and about to lose many many more and know perfectly well how much training is costing them. Their response is to make sure their employees are acutely aware by inforcing bonds and freeze periods. I predict their arrogance will be their downfall. Those in power at VA have absolutely no idea and they are going to bankrupt this company. And who pays??

QF hasn't hired in how many years? I think many have forgotton the impact on the entire industry QF recruitment creates. And now we have desperate airlines from all over the world fighting over Australian pilots.

Time to step up to the mark VA management. Step up.

Perhaps a bit of a stretch? I would guess that airlines are desperate for pilots, period. Regardless of which country they hail from. Australian pilots are no better or worse than others, if anything they seem to have a reputation (generally from the ex-AN crews and the chip on one's shoulder they seem to have) overseas.

Ten Two Hundred, if you have documented proof that airlines out there are purposefully headhunting Australian pilots, I'll eat my hat and goggles. I think you'll find airlines will generally look for people who can spell pilot, and have a pulse.

I see an increasing amount of Australian operators advertising they'll consider 457 applicants - interesting times ahead.

Fuel-Off :ok:

Might wanna re-think that last statement. Most Qantas cadets that have just started have in excess of 3000 hours and when the flood gates open you can bet your arse guys with 5000 hours plus, including turbo-prop command will apply...