The Jet driver gods don't lower themselves to hand fly the aeroplane, because they have lost this skill.

Single pilot IFR in a light twin is way more difficult than cruising in VMC at 40000ft in an Airbus or Boeing and watching the automatics fly.

Yet we continually get told prop drivers cant transition to jets its too hard you need 20000 hours space shuttle time and five moon landings to be considered for a type rating let alone a command.

What a load of S#$*.

Okay, now you've had your rant, go have a Bex and a lie down!

For what it's worth, I transitioned from a Twin Otter to a Boeing 737 and I don't remember anybody "continually" telling me it's too hard.
In fact I don't know of any pilot who didn't fly a prop before they flew a jet!

What's all this talk about high workload for the PNF?

If you can't set the bugs while accomplishing the rest of your duties, perhaps you'd be better suited to another line of work. I don't ever recall being in a situation where I felt overloaded because the other guy was hand flying.

Re the "nice day" comments...what defines a "nice day"? I hope you're not limiting it to daytime VMC. With few exceptions (thunderstorms and other severe weather) I don't have a problem with someone turning off all the automation, regardless of the weather.

Answering Wally_mk2; Exactly right, especially doing an ILS with no A/T.

Yes...you're very clever. Nevertheless it is against the rules to hand fly in the cruise in RVSM.

You have to be kidding Wally Mk2 (...I hope).

Nope, he's not, get no practice at it except in a very occasional sim.

care to tell us which airline this is NN?

Nope..........

It's curious how the briefing of the expected level of automation was a rock solid part of an approach briefing. Then it became the expectation of manual flying, an now it's seems to be the expectation of the level of manual flying. Maybe this is a sign that things are changing for the better. That there if a cultural change within mature organisations to make manual flying "Normal" and I for one believe this to be a good thing.

I somewhat feel that inappropriate guidance and training is focused on pilots and their ability to monitor and maintain appropriate levels of situational awareness during supporting roles. This is usually the domain of the Trainers and Checkers in the fleet who have to master this skill. For everyone else, it is a throw back to previous experience which keeps them in the loop. But what about our cadets, or low time pilots? What about those with only single pilot experience? With humans naturally being poor monitors of systems, is the flaw in the system not in ones ability to fly the aircraft, but an individuals training to fulfill the pilot monitoring role which makes pilots and airlines nervous about manual flying on the line?

I think some of you guys are missing the point here & letting yr bravado be the focus. Pilots in general have a wide variation in skill level so there's no one singe answer or mind set to all this hence we train to a specific level with CAR 217 with tolerances for the candidate etc.
Some also don't seem to understand the increased level of workload for the PNF when the AP system is removed. Not only does the PNF have to set pretty much everything for the PF he has to have a higher situational awareness as his time is now reduced keeping an eye on the PF's tolerances whilst having a more broad range of his thinking. The PF brings his SA down to a smaller range.
It's almost akin to SP Ops bar for not actually manipulating the controls for the PNF.

'Hobo' Airline names have nothing to do with it here & no I wasn't joking re hand flown ILS being challenging at times.

Wmk2

Fly
 

The chicken or the egg?

No hand flying between sims then expected to fly a beautiful raw data single engine ILS, no stress but fair go.

Cessna/ Boeing/ Bus what's the difference when ya switch off automatics and fly? Principle is all the same push the noise makers forward go faster, pull the stick/ yoke back the sky gets bigger...

Nothing more satisfying than a nice annual visual approach in the bus, makes ya remember what flying is.

Now the truly scary thing is the guys that seem scared to go manual or genuinely don't want to do a visual app.

True a little hamstrung by OMs but still...

So many MEL procedures that we simply don't practice, how comfortable would one feel with some of them when you simply haven't done any for so long?

Bring back SIM sessions for some practice.


:8

Come on guys/gals, we're professionals. Yes, our hand flying skills erode & yes, it makes the sims harder.

It's up to us to look for opportunities to hand fly (The early morning arrival in VMC, or the 'occasional' 2 sector day when we're not stuffed). I reckon we need to practice manual flying at least once a month (& get the AT out too). It's good practice for PNF too, stretch the SA bubble.

I know this will attract immediate snorts of derision from the nay-sayers, but let's be a bit realistic about all this scary talk about the PNF being up to his neck in alligators with a heavy work-load if the other guy is poling the aircraft. Yours truly and many other newly graduated 21 year old RAAF pilots were posted to Williamtown to fly single seat Vampire jet fighters. All of our course had only 240 hours in our log books. We flew Mustangs at 210 hours. This is not boasting bar talk nonsense but simply a cold statement of fact in those days. Things are different now.

There were no dual Vampires then and of course no simulators. On my second or third 40 minute flight (the endurance on single seat Vampires was a bit over one hour), it was a formation take off into cloud at 1000 ft and a climb in formation in cloud to 30,000ft plus. We stuck within 10 metres of the formation leader who was usually an experienced former operational fighter pilot just back from the war in Korea. That is no mean feat in thick cloud.

We had one VHF set in the Vampire with four channels and very basic pressurisation giving a cabin altitude of around 18,000 ft, so you were on oxygen. There was no ejection seat in those early single seat Vampires so you had no hope of getting out if something went wrong at high speed. We had no radio aids. We relied almost totally on VHF/DF and GCA to get us back home. The second trip on the same day included introduction to Mach runs up to compressibility critical Mach Number at 30,000ft in order to experience the rather nasty Mach tuck which had killed several pilots on previous courses.

During the Mach tuck experience, it was realised we did not have the experience on type (after all we only had two 40 minute trips under our belt by then) to recognise the rapid onset of compressibility. So the formation leader would formate on our Vampire and talk us into the dive via VHF. As soon as the formation leader felt the onset of compressibility and his aircraft started to bunt over due to loss of elevator effectiveness, he would instruct us to throttle back and extend the speed brakes to avoid further compressibility loss of control. That done, he would take the lead again and maybe go into a tail chase depending on weather.

Eventually we would return to the aerodrome still in close formation and sometimes penetrate cloud while being radar vectored until breaking out of cloud at 1000 ft for either a visual circuit or GCA instrument approach. All this on our second or third trip in a jet fighter. There was no such term as "work-load" as far as I recall. You had a brand new pilot's brevet on your uniform under your flying suit and it was expected of you to handle the fighter without bleating about workload.

I have deliberately gone into detail in full anticipation of it generating heat and not much light. We never considered what we did as being work overload. Which is why it never fails to astonish me that some of today's generation of airline pilots claim to get all uptight when someone decides to do a spot of hand flying in cloud or good weather and the PNF is asked to turn a knob or two and keep normal situational awareness by watching the magenta Line. Believe me it didn't hurt one bit to fly a single seat jet fighter when we only had just over 200 hours in the log book. Why should it be any different in a two pilot jet transport equipped with so much automation?:ok:

Hand fly and request visual approaches regularly, and encourage my offsider to do the same. It's fun.

It's not dangerous .

It doesn't load up anyone.

I still know how to fly a plane

well there you go A37575. In one post you comment about other airmen being killed by the situation you refer to as doing 'the right stuff' and 'just managing'... I guess you can't figure out why things have moved on so?

As for the PM getting loaded by the PF hand flying - yes the PM's workload will increase, how much will depend on the overall situation. In general I wouldn't expect the other guy to 'have a fly' until on approach if it was a particularly busy spot - ie. holding/vectors/weather into somewhere like london or dubai when it's pretty busy and everyone is knackered. When it starts to get quiet and all's well on base or wherever, knock yourself out.
Like everything, there is a time and place!
As for manual thrust - was standard to take it out when hand flying the maggot but current type has levers that couldn't be of a poorer design for manual thrust :ugh:

I don't think he was suggesting not to use the AP. He's saying that the "workload increase" argument is BS. Occasionally, I have to fly with no AP. Sure I'm a bit more tired at the end of the day, but I don't feel overloaded- even in night IMC.

Geeze guys, why make it so hard. If the conditions are suitable and you feel like it then hand fly the aircraft.

I have no set schedule of when I will handfly, but I do so quite regularly, normally because I get so bloody bored that I disconnect everything to give me something to do.

I wouldn't hand fly in RVSM airspace / in bad weather / with certain FO's because that is what my employer directs and after all it is their trainset. As professionals we all should know when it is appropriate to hand fly and when it is not. SIMPLE

Ill hand fly to and from Transition several times a month, weather and traffic permitting of course, bad weather and OCTA I think it is good Airmanship to leave the A/P engaged, in CTAF's I wont disconnect until traffic is no issue and established in the circuit. Even better is to get rid of that flight director, and get back to Attitude flying, after all its not that hard to follow a FD.....The RNP approaches are good from a safety standpoint but really take the headwork out of an approach, all you need to do is stay in LNAV and VNAV and push and pull the thrust levers and you will end up aligned with some tarmac ready to land...Its a balancing act but suffice to say it must be much harder for Longhaul Pilots doing only a few sectors a month compared to domestic doing
heaps....

a few a month is a bit generous...