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-   -   MERGED: Alan's still not happy...... (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/528014-merged-alans-still-not-happy.html)

Howard Hughes 15th Dec 2013 04:54

True Mitch, but one of those variables is years of service and there are hell of a lot of experienced cabin crew in the ranks! Think about it! ;)

No doubt where the intent of management lies (oops a Freudian slip)!!

blueloo 15th Dec 2013 04:55

An accountant was recently interviewed over QFs end of year financials on ABC. (Possibly a link was on prune) Essentially aside from the somewhat fluffly accounting used at QF designed to make it look better than it is, he did discuss cost cutting and job numbers. He commented that operational staff had been cut to about what was required. Where QFs problem lies is in the excessive amounts of middle managers and non-operational staff.

standard unit 15th Dec 2013 05:02


I don't think pilot (or engineer) wages are a concern for QF, I suspect cabin crew and ground crew are where QF are not competitive with their International counterparts!
Said like a true pilot.

booglaboy 15th Dec 2013 05:27

Inverted pyramid is exactly right. That and the level of non -operational staff per airframe and the duplication of jobs due to Jq.
Engineering has received the deepest cuts thus far yet A new level of ops managers across the country has just been added to watch over less and less people. Makes zero sense yet it is happening across every department.
I'm ready for the troll attack but it's management that has killed qantas, not unions or wages or virgin or any other Joyce excuse. . Every department has increased efficiencies with less staff but the manager ranks continue to grow. Hell ,we even have 4 ceo's

framer 15th Dec 2013 05:32

Are there any cabin managers that earn $100k AUD per annum?
I have heard that there are but don't know if it is true. I have spoken to ground staff ( non Engineering on the Tarmac) that were in overtime and earning $60 AUD an hour.
Personally I don't begrudge anyone earning whatever they can get but it is a lot of money in a global market.

Arnold E 15th Dec 2013 05:52


I have spoken to ground staff ( non Engineering on the Tarmac) that were in overtime and earning $60 AUD an hour.
$60/Hr for a groundy, where do I sign up.:eek:

Ida down 15th Dec 2013 05:54

Blueloo, QF has always been top heavy, and is a truly paid up member of the old boys club. Every four years or so, it has always gone into some sort of panic, and fires left, right and centre, mainly experienced staff, then for some unknown reason, turns around and hires people who have not a clue, then repeats the cycle four years on. Its like some sort of a mating ritual. I started in TAA aged nineteen, a F/O who was clueless, overwhelmed by the size of a DC3! I was bashed into shape by men from Bomber Command, who had survived, and flew on, it was a experience that would not be accepted, or recognised today, as suitable pilot training, but did they weed out the unsuitable, and not in the nicest way. They were hard, tough, men, scarred by war service, and most were still under thirty. I finished, aged sixty five, and what I saw along the way, taught me a lot about people, training, and management. I flew under some great managers and CEO's and PIC's who really knew their stuff, I flew aircraft that were totally suitable for their workload, and their time. Meanwhile QF, the boss cocky in Aviation, in Australia, continued on, top heavy, over unionised, the old boys club, in every section, and thumbing their nose at all and sundry, and was disliked intensely by both TAA and Ansett. Then eventually, years after the dispute, they took me on, and I got some insight into the company, and I found a staff totally loyal, who were constantly kicked in the head, but came back for more, I found a totally arrogant management, that were a law unto themselves, a company that was top heavy in middle management, half stuck up a ladder, but not going to let anyone else pass, and made the assessment that QF flies in spite of itself, and little has changed. I hope many disagree with my assessment, and see the company in a totally different light, I hope QF gets out of this mess, with as little damage as possible, especially to staff, that deserve better, but I also hope some CEO who really knows their stuff, strips this company back to being lean and mean and competitive, even if they do become part of a mega carrier, but retain their own individuality, their own history, their own opportunity for a future, for the sake of its staff, and future staff. With the demise of both TAA and Ansett, it never crossed my mind, that the boss cocky airline would ever falter, but time and practices have caught up with it, and it did not have the management to cope with it. In spite of all this, I believe it can, and will survive, its joined to the hip of this country, something no other airline can claim, and that is probably why it will survive.

standard unit 15th Dec 2013 06:00

Are there any Captains that earn $500k AUD per annum?
I have heard that there are but don't know if it is true. I have spoken to ground staff ( non Engineering on the Tarmac) that were in overtime and earning $60 AUD an hour.
Personally I don't begrudge anyone earning whatever they can get but it is a lot of money in a global market.

cloudsurfng 15th Dec 2013 06:08


Are there any Captains that earn $500k AUD per annum?
Just management ones :p

They certainly dont earn it. And for the few line capts that may, I think you'll find that the majority of QF crew also think its a joke given that they spend half their lives in the bunk…..

For clarity, did the QAL crew vote up an agreement a few years ago that allowed the company to start the B scale? I could be wrong but I seem to remember something about a $3k signing bonus or something…..

Howard Hughes 15th Dec 2013 06:12


Said like a true pilot.
Correct, but with Google at your finger tips, one doesn't need to be Einstein (or even an MBA) to work out where the problem lays!

I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory that wages make Qantas un-competitive. But if I accept the premise, then the problems with regard to wages lay outside the pilot group (my best guess based on 30 years of dealings with Qantas, would be cabin crew and ground handlers). Pilots cannot be held responsible for crewing ratios, aircraft choice, nor group direction, but sadly they (and other core employee groups) will be the ones most deeply affected!

Middle management and duplicate management (Jetstar) as pointed out by blueloo and booglaboy, are also at the forefront in this whole sorry mess.

As someone who loves not only aircraft, but the industry as a whole, an industry that was mostly started by men of vision and passion. It is hard for me to watch a once great company be ruined by a man who has no love, or regard for aviation, nor any inkling of what Qantas means to the Australian psyche as a whole.

Personally I don't begrudge anyone earning whatever they can get but it is a lot of money in a global market.
Neither do I, but management needs to adapt to changing conditions and grow new markets. Apart from cannibalising an existing market, what have they done to grow the business? All of these 'smart MBA's are only good at shifting and disguising $$!!

Customers? What are they?

standard unit 15th Dec 2013 06:22


For clarity, did the QAL crew vote up an agreement a few years ago that allowed the company to start the B scale? I could be wrong but I seem to remember something about a $3k signing bonus or something…..
Would that have been the agreement that it someway addresses Qantas's ongoing need to reduce it's labour costs?

Pilots ?

CSTGuy 15th Dec 2013 06:23


Are there any cabin managers that earn $100k AUD per annum?
There are an abundance of CSM's who easily make over 6 figures each year and even quite a few FA's. That and SO's doing SFA - not even in a control seat below FL200, and earning $200K+ easily. And that ladies & gentlemen is another area why & where QF is outstandingly uncompetitive.

They could save $40m per year with the stroke of a pen on the LH EBA. All SO's on $100k base, + OT. It would likely get up cause 90% of CAPT & FO's would vote for it to protect their piece of the pie - which isn't such a bad thing. (At they're actually working for a living.)


They certainly dont earn it. And for the few line capts that may, I think you'll find that the majority of QF crew also think its a joke given that they spend half their lives in the bunk…..
- same can be said of SO's......

And many many of them have grinned over a beer to me about their "job".

A very positive outcome from this would be the obligatory dummy spits by the Bolshevik SO's who've been milking the cravy train, who would leave QF, thus helping to fix the RIN issue.

So forget the pilot wages issue continually being wheeled out by the media being about the $400k pilots, how about if the wider Aust population found out about the actual job SO's do for their $200k +. Considering the media is generally so pro-QF management, I'm surprised the SO facts aren't more proliferated.

Wake up QF LH, you've helped destroy the decaying system you're in!

NOT LETTING AJ & the BOARD OFF THE HOOK FOR MACRO ISSUES HOWEVER!

Howard Hughes 15th Dec 2013 06:26

Standard if you look at the raw figures QF pilots are paid less than their International counterparts. Where the in-efficiency comes into play is the pilots to airframes ratio, this is a situation that executive management have created!

cloudsurfng 15th Dec 2013 06:36


Would that have been the agreement that it someway addresses Qantas's ongoing need to reduce it's labour costs?
No….that would be the quick grab for cash without consideration of what it would do. Short sightedness at its best. Funnily enough, no CC I've ever met admits to voting 'yes' for that one.

Why are you advocating a cut to peoples pay? Wouldn't it be better to see QF chasing revenue, thereby growing, creating more jobs etc? Cost cutting does not lead to an increase in profits in the medium to long term. Yep, that is actually in Business 101…..


It would likely get up cause 90% of CAPT & FO's would vote for it to protect their piece of the pie - which isn't such a bad thing. (At they're actually working for a living.)
No…it wouldn't get up. The reason SO's earn so much (particularly the 380) is that so many are on year 12 pay rates. Given that the A380 only does Overtime sectors (for SO's anyway), the issue lies with the calculation of OT.

A better change, would be a change to the implementation and calculation of OT. That way it wouldn't adversely affect only one rank.


(At they're actually working for a living.)
Oh please……

Anyway…..as has been said, the reason QF is in its current predicament is because of shite management. It is in no way because of any operational staff, or what they get paid. If everyone took a cut now, in 2 years they'd be crying poor again…and you'd be on Pprune telling us all to take another hit.

framer 15th Dec 2013 06:44


There are an abundance of CSM's who easily make over 6 figures each year and even quite a few FA's.
I find that astounding.

standard unit 15th Dec 2013 06:55


No….that would be the quick grab for cash without consideration of what it would do. Short sightedness at its best. Funnily enough, no CC I've ever met admits to voting 'yes' for that one.
The bonus was little more than a one off piss in the wind.

Can you elaborate as to exactly what was so short sighted about reducing the cost of new hire cabin crew to closer to that of Qantas's competition?

Angle of Attack 15th Dec 2013 06:57

200k would be a vast minority of senior S/O's on the 380. (I still think it would only be a few that purposely only fly the longest sectors) Some struggle to gross more than 75 - 80k on the A330. There is such a disparity of pay among the same rank depending on what fleet they are on as Overtime has such a profound multiplier over the base rate. The highest paid would thus be on the A380 without a doubt as most sectors are Overtime ones. That is the system that management has created/agreed to and I think we are clutching at straws anyway going on about the wages of all frontline staff, its the inverted Pyramid setup that has QF in its grip, and it needs to be sorted...

cloudsurfng 15th Dec 2013 07:05


Can you elaborate as to exactly what was so short sighted about reducing the cost of new hire cabin crew to closer to that of Qantas's competition?
Sure. Back then we had a premium and 2 LCC's. The premium airline paid good wages. The LCC paid LCC wages.

CC agree to a B scale. All of a sudden you've created a new market expectation for the wages of a premium CC member…which low and behold is similar to that of a LCC!!!

Fast forward to today, is there any pressure on QCCA/QCD to reduce wages? Or is it all on QAL? Did QCCA/QCD get offered VR, or was it only QAL?
By agreeing to a B scale, QAL crew lost flying. And when we speak at work, the common theme from QAL CC is 'they want to get rid of us'.

Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for what you do. But you can't get on here and ask us all to take a hit just because you guys did. Our wages are not the problem!!!


its the inverted Pyramid setup that has QF in its grip, and it needs to be sorted...
Bingo!!!

standard unit 15th Dec 2013 07:07


But you can't get on here and ask us all to take a hit just because you guys did.
Oh dear, I see.........

Fool Sufferer 15th Dec 2013 07:15

Why not do away with those overpaid second officers altogether and operate long range sectors heavy crew the way most globally competitive airlines do, using two captains and two first officers.

Oh wait a minute..


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