"pithicus, well said. What happens next is we have our own Colgan disaster. Two pressurised pilots, worried about their job security and conditions of employment, make a fatal mistake through stress. When that happens all the savings made over a decade of cheese paring and cost saving will vanish in an instant, but unfortunately not the management bonuses already paid out.

Well said alright! :D

As cumbersome as the "seniority" system may appear to the younger generation, it works, mess with it, let the bean counters win, then we may start to hear more stories about pilots distracted by their phones in the final phase of flight.. or pulling the stick back when it should have been pushed forward at a critical moment..

As dramatic as it may sound, Sunfish has a strong point..

I'm loyal to the current well proven "seniority" system at Qantas.. always nice to know it's still there.
.

So far there has been no "Colgan" so therefore the system is "safe", at least in the eyes of the beancounters. Their risk modelling is very different to that of a pilot.

When there is a "Colgan" those that created the problem have not only got their bonuses but have also departed the scene. They never seem to be held accountable and since it didn't happen on their watch they have the view it cannot have been as a result of anything they did.

So, Qantas borrows money to buy an A320. They incur costs such as interest, depreciation, maintenance etc. The A320 is leased to Jetstar. In a true arm's length arrangement, Jetstar's lease payments would cover Qantas' costs plus a margin, and Qantas would make a profit from Jetstar.

The thing is, what's in it for Jetstar? If you were running Jetstar, wouldn't you cut out the middle man, borrow the money to buy the A320 yourself and save the margin you are paying to Qantas? Or even outsource the leases. Afterall, they outsource many other parts of their business outside of the group, why not aircraft leasing? Who here believes that QF mainline, whilst apparently having one of the highest cost workforces coupled with a high dollar, just happens to have to most competitive aircraft lease rates in the world? Unless, of course, the leases aren't really at market rates and it's just another way to shift costs between QF and JQ.

This also further highlights one of the biggest problems with management (and there is a long, long list) and that is consistency.

One day we need faster depreciation ... the next depreciation is breaking the back of QF Int.

One part of the group needs brand new, leased aircraft ... the other needs 20 year old, clapped out gas guzzlers that are owned.

Not one dollar will spent on mainline until it returns a profit ... but we can afford to spend millions to park aircraft for unproven Asian franchises that have never turned a profit.

If management ever hope to regain any credibility with staff, investors and the public they need to have a consistent strategy which is applied to all parts of the group.

About maybe ten aircraft are owned by Qantas in the Jetstar A320 fleet. The rest are shelf companies. Who knows who the companies are owned by.

Firstly, it's not 10, it's 20 aircraft owned by Qantas.
With names like 'QF CALYON' and 'QF BOC', registered address 203 Coward Street Mascot, I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say they are owned by Qantas. Same with 'WOMBAT LEASING', Eagle St Brisbane. As far as the many leasing companies based in the Cayman Islands go, I'm sure that the fact that Qantas mainline has had a long history of owning leasing companies there is pure coincidence.

Secondly, even if it is only 1 aircraft owned by mainline, all of the points raised in my previous posts remain valid. I'm trying to understand the point of your post. Is it that a little bit of shonky accounting is ok?

I know it's been said before, but I can't understand why the shareholders are not rioting. All this must be obvious to them, surely.

Gen Y is the mediocre generation.

Everyone knows they are generally poor performing employees (there are exceptions) who have no patience, no loyalty and a poor work ethic. So they just dont get the good jobs. They are destined to spend their lives in mediocre private industry jobs and in the public service. Gen Z is set to run rings around Gen Y.

They think they are smart but they are not. Everyone knows their game. They have no loyalty so you give them none back - you just use them up, make hollow promises and spit them out.

Gen Y is also the generation that is going to pay for the baby boomers etc. Whilst we will all get to retire early enough with the bulk of the national wealth, Gen Y will have to work in their mediocre jobs until they drop.

Some in Gen Y will rise above their lazy peers and do well but they are few and far between.

SOPS.

The investors don't get to see the f&$@ ups the staff see.

I'm sure they are fed the same bull$/&t lines from management the media are fed.

Remember the phrase the three unions are damaging the brand. The forward bookings are collapsing and grounding the airline is the only option available to management.

So if your an investor. You think. Good on you alan for taking on the unions. The lazy militant employees are the ones driving the share price and profitability south.

I wouldn't expect AJ & LC to go to an investor briefing saying we f&@$ed up. We should have ordered the 777. The Jetstar Asia franchises are costing us dearly and we were sniffing AVTUR when we fantasised that little gem Red Q. And that little deal we signed with EK. Well, we really got screwed with that one.

The investors wouldn't be getting the real story otherwise AJ LC & co would be gone long ago.

Let me try: CamelSquadron is positively a ****. Howzat?

The generations as currently presented and labelled comprise a wide spectrum of individuals, the variety of which will confound facile attempts to categorise them en masse.

WRT to loyalty both paid and deserved, employers must first demonstrate loyalty in order to ask it in return. Especially demonstratively dishonest employers like QF. So sorry, but they dealt the cards, now they have to play their hand.

The only way to overcome the amused disbelief that the off-campus* world has for QF management is to replace them all, then plaster every QF ad with the "under new management" banner. Just like the hated corner milk bar.

*an inside joke: QF now calls its office complex "the campus". As though what went on there was either collegiate or serious thought. This misuse of the word is designed to imply both academic gravitas and excellence, neither of which is evident. A perhaps unintended consequence** is to amplify the already very high levels of hatred we mere graduates have for these puffed-up pretenders.

**If QF ever gets another new airframe I nominate "unintended consequence" as its name.

Thanks Master Caution, I sort of figured the same thing. But surely an large investor of any worth, could do some home work and see that there are unused aircraft parked around the world, that giving Jetstar the 787 is a really stupid idea, that not getting 777s was an equally dumb move...I could go on. But it seems they are all sitting there, with their heads rammed deep in the sand.

And another thing, SIA can put 4 flights a day into Perth. Mr Joyce told us all here in Perth the other day, that a daily service to Singapore is just not making money. How the hell is that possible? And if he thinks I'm going to choose Jetstar's so called buisness class over SIA, he has another thing coming.

Australapopitcus

Most crew I know avoid "The Campus" like the plague in fear of being labelled either a Flight Ops Groupie or contracting a serious case of corporate group think.

SOPS

I still don't understand the level of investor support AJ gets either. I believe AIPA have also conducted investor briefings. I can only put it down to AJ has a mandate to turn QF International around by 2016 and they are waiting to see the outcome.

Surely he can't last past 2016 if International isn't profitable (on the books)

The major shareholders are making more off short selling stock than they ever would with growth. As long as these clowns are in charge anyway. They are very happy with the current state of affairs.

If they were not, there'd be a culling.

Matt Caution,

I'd like to think that after the last investor meeting, AJ and LC are on their final warning.

It's Pythonesque in stupidity to be associated with The Campus. A once proud airline is being managed into the ground by tossers with no idea. As flight crew we should, and I will, walk off an aeroplane if Joyce or Clifford walk on. I just don't care anymore about their directionless moronic mantra. Drinking from the Kool Aid, not for this little black duck. Joyce is never seen and I wonder why? The 787-9 will never come to mainline and without it we will become a domestic feeder to Emirates. Strong once told me that optimum shareholder value would be maximised if Qantas was a domestic carrier based in Sydney. For all intents and purposes this is what we will become within the lifespan of the A380. What's happening to Australia? Are we to be just a farm a quarry or a resort. The more I hear of Abbott and Hockey and the way they have skewed the debate about National debt and the deficit the more disgusted I have become about modern politics and the manipulation of facts to suit an agenda. We all know Joyce was lying when he grounded the airline and yet it's tolerated in society. Abbott blatantly lied to gain power and now wants to take Australia down some perverse path of right wing ideology of questionable and dubious prophecy which has no economic basis if you believe most academics and even some within the Murdoch press. Does anybody in high office or business conduct themselves with honour and integrity in this country? Please name someone.

Nick Xenophon.

Nick Xenophon indeed, but no other names spring to mind.

all intents and purposes

Hmm, can't help feeling this is the bottom line and why the investors are supporting Joyce & Clifford. Close down QFI due to heavy losses as the excuse...? Joyce is the right man for that job, he's got form..

Good to review what we are dealing with, about 10.40 mark first clip onwards

kids, the idea still is to take Qantas private, then clean out the management and make a killing. The major investors in QF are New York hedge funds who are the instigators of the plan.

The APA boyz first tried to buy the business at a premium valuation, when that failed they set about driving the price down so they could get it on the cheap.

it is obvious to anyone who looks that the airline is catastrophically mismanaged as evidenced by Tony Abbotts contempt for its overtures to Government, as evidenced by its tie up with Emirates, as evidenced by its disastrous Asian forays, as evidenced by its preference for grounding its fleet rather than negotiating, as evidenced by the canibalization of its markets by Jetstar and as evidenced by its continuous abysmal treatment of its staff. This is no accident.

The first thing on gaining control of Qantas will be the reversal of every policy Alan Joyce has adopted.

The end result is a privately owned national flag carrier with 65% of the domestic market and perhaps 50% of the international market. Profit baby! Profit!