Bit sensitive KK? I did say most F/O's, the good ones won't just be focused on the dashed white line. Have a look at the report. The bloke under training rotated 20kts early. Do you think he was more situationally aware than the PIC even though he was training to be one? I have trained people to be in the LHS and initially they are purely focused on the path ahead and are not scanning the EGT and N1. Thats because they never have looked at them before and it is a habit they have to develop.

Sounds like a fundamental failing of your C and T, LL. Are you serious your FOs under training for command "never have looked at them before"?

Are you suggesting that all F/O's at every other airline do? They're not ulitmately responsible for initating an RTO so they don't include it in their scan. Its why I have stated before that it is most obvious in the sim when an RTO does occur they are still going WTF when we are already at max braking and full reverse. Its why I ask them what engine had the highest EGT, it makes it obvious that they have to include the engine indications in their scan.

Geez, I would have thought the first thing a FO Bloggs gets taught, when PNF, is to look at the engine instruments! That's what he's there for?? :ooh:

That's the procedure, so I would hope so.

Then how do you explain a rotation 20kts before V1if he is in the habit of scanning his PFD and engine instruments? How do you explain the startle factor in the sim when an RTO occurs and they should be scanning those very same instruments that procedure dictates should be scanned? According to your Utopian world of airline SOPs an F/O should be equally as familiar with OM1, FAM whatever as the Captain but because they are not ultimately responsible for the operation of the aircraft there is usually a knowledge gap. I'm not sure what seat you blokes occupy but if it is the LHS next time you are P/F have a glance at where your F/O is looking. Any Captain who is relying completely on the F/O to notify a failing engine is not doing the job properly. Any Captain who doesn't take over and conduct an RTO before the F/O notices any problems is not doing the job properly.

Wow, you must be a pleasure to fly with.

Err, a stuffup (assisted in large part by a non-standard and misunderstood call from the RHS)?

Actually, it's the other way round.

Obviously.

Obviously. By definition, if the captain is taking over, he was the PNF, and he would have spotted the engine failure first...

But only if he just happened by coincidence to be staring at both N1 needles exactly at the very second one engine failed, and in between monitoring the F/O trundle down the centreline of the runway at high speed. It is probable the F/O would have detected the engine failure first as he would instinctively correct for the yaw from the centreline.

That's not been my experience in the sim which is the only time I have experienced an RTO thankfully. That's why I refer to the startle factor, it's usually the stop command that alerts the F/O to the fact something is wrong.

Glad to see that you agree with me Bloggsy on most points although you I'm not sure why your definitive statement about the knowledge gap is any more definitive than my statement. An important part of having knowledge is knowing how to apply it, a lot of F/Os and most cadets do not have that knowledge,hence the knowledge gap. You are suggesting it's the captains who don't have that ability to apply the knowledge. If it is truly the case that your F/Os know more than you then I suggest it's time you get back into the books.

As for the incident in question just being a simple "stuff up" it wasn't the non standard call it was the poor situational awareness that led to the early rotation.

Ah Yes!...supreme knowledge, a wonderful thing that all super hero captains like Left Right have.
Pity the poor senior first officers that don't have this Left Right supreme knowledge, but an inferior knowledge that has to be monitored at all times!
Thank goodness we have super hero sim instructors like Left Right to maintain the standard in Oz! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just wondering Lookleft - How long have you been in Airline Training?

Hmm!... Look Right seems to have vacated Prune.
Must be locked up inside the sim doing his super hero sim instructor stuff to save the Oz public from the lesser cretins of Oz aviation! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

With the attitude Looklame exhibits I am thinking he may in fact be an old crusty CASA FOI!!

Back to the drawing board for me; another opportunity for the industry to shine, educate the children (CASA and ATSB included) and to discuss some of the more subtle, cunning and devious methods aircraft can use to spoil your day; lost in mists of ego, rhetoric and twaddle.

Aye well – next time. :ugh:

Perhaps time to enter the real world for you Kh! :bored:

So you think that your rapier like wit and powerfull insight into all things aviation is enough to frighten people away from the keyboard amos? Unlike you I don't stick my head out from under the bridge when the billy goats gruff cross.

Interesting that other than CB and Centaurus the only comment is from those making personal attacks and nothing of substance.

K laments the opportunity missed and I agree with him. My posts refer to my actual experience and a possible explanation of why an experienced F/O undergoing command training interpreted something his training captain said as a command to rotate without checking his own speed tape. I'm not going to rehash it, read what I actually wrote and not get all hot under the collar because you think F/O's are some sort of sacred cow.

BTW Never been a sim instructor and I have plenty of airline training experience, thanks for asking. Whats your experience?