how about the fare is for 130kg (person, checked bags and 7kg carry on) then charge whatever each airline charges per kilo over, but 7kg "carry on" is the upper limit.
Then we won't have to stand behind the suits trying to cram suitcase into the overheads.
Political Correctness and Sensitivities Ignored.

LHS

Problem (mostly) solved !
 

Here's a controversial thought for you, I mostly blame the CSM's !

Most of the posters in this thread are suggesting that "the airlines" should enforce the rules.

Well hello !!!

What is the suggestion, That AJ stands at each and every boarding gate and inspects / measures / weighs each and every passengers bag ?

No, The CSM's need to "grow a pair" and tell the boarders to make sure that cabin baggage limitations ARE ENFORCED.

And in the event that any ground staff or duty airport manager gives the FA's / CSM's a hard time then the Captain needs to stand up for the cabin staff and tell the ground staff that these are the rules and the cabin staff are right to enforce them.

I'm definitely not one for supporting AJ, but in this case "The Company" HAS made the rules, if the staff are not going to enforce them, whose fault is that ?

Captains reading this, on your next flight TELL YOUR CSM's THAT YOU EXPECT THAT THEY WILL ENSURE CABIN BAGGAGE LIMITATIONS ARE ENFORCED.

ST

skipper, re the size test units in the lounge.
pax have no idea what they are for. a number of years ago at syd domestic i saw a punter with bag in the unit and dragging the whole contraption by the strap handle up the concourse to their gate lounge. they must have been from a place with lots of snow. best laugh staff had in years.

In my experience, baggage is fairly well scrutinised at Qantas Domestic, with a dash of common sense thrown in.

One problem is that the 767 interior was designed in the late 70's/early 80's when pax did not bring on as much luggage and the original 737-800 interior was designed around a two class capacity of 150 - not the 168 or more that you seen at our full service airlines.

Another problem is the refusal of most pax travelling on business to put one of their two bags under the seat in front. This is due to the lack of legroom and it also seems to be some sort of 'status' thing - like claiming the most space makes them feel better.

Many times, I've have pulled up male pax with three or more pieces tell me they are carrying them for a female colleague who has already boarded. I have caught a couple out, but what can one realistically do in most cases?

Cabin crew can be pressured to make it work as current procedures have the baggage loading equipment withdrawn when the last pax scans their boarding pass - which can easily be ten minutes before they enter the cabin (let alone attempt to find room for their luggage). This means that the pax luggage, which is fully compliant with (or even less than) the allowance is not able to fit in the cabin and will follow on the next flight (hopefully). Try telling someone going to Adelaide for 4-8 hours that their bag will be 2 hours behind them! Not a position most cabin crew are comfortable with.

The only answer I can think of would be to rip out seats or restrict the allowance to one piece of DOMESTIC size luggage. Can't see either happening, sadly.

Anyone ever observed how few pax are at the carousels and compared it to the number onboard? I know of CSMs who have delays due to cabin baggage track down the number of pax vs. the number of checked bags. The statistics shocked me.

Back up from the pilots would be great, but do they have the time to be exerting such authority in the current work environment? Do they want to be involved in what the punters see as a purely customer service issue? I do not think many pax make the link between baggage allowances and safety.

I really think we're close to finding the cause of the problem with excess cabin baggage, It really seems to me that STAFF don't / won't enforce the rules !!

(1) OK, Sounds right off the bat you knowingly allow "some" excess baggage on as a matter of course

(2) What can you do if someone presents with three bags....Tell the pax that HE is permitted TWO bags, and if his female colleague wants to come and get hers FROM THE BOARDING GATE she is welcome to come back

(3) "Pressured" to do their job, which is to stop the excess baggage that they are complaining about ?

(4) Not your problem, besides the B737 can have bags thrown in the holds basically right up to pushback, the belt doen't leave the B767 "boot" until just a few minutes before pushback.

(5) As above

(6) There would be more room for compliant luggage if the non-compliant luggage was stopped at the gate !

(7) "I'm sorry sir, you bag exceeds the allowable limits, we can try to get it in the hold for you if you like but it might miss the flight."

(8) Agreed, If the cabin crew / CSM find something over the limit the flight crew MUST back them up 100%

As long as the cabin crew do not enforce the baggage allowances, who can complain if passengers bring what is indeed permitted by the cabin crew ?

Sure, the Jetstar / Tiger / LCC passengers whine and bitch that they need to check in half a day before their flight, but THEY KNOW THEY HAVE TO, AND THE CONSEQUENCES IF THEY DON'T !!

I'm sorry, but your post just seems to me to be a bunch of reasons as to why cabin crew don't enforce the rules.

ST

You're probably right, but IME; whatever the occupation frontline serfs only enforce rules if they are confident management will back them up, even if it pisses off customers.

If they're not confident they won't play, because it's not worth the potential embarassment when the manager backs the skanky pax (sorry customer / 'guest' :rolleyes:) over the serf in the interests of 'customer service' and 'goodwill'. :yuk:

From your username, I assume you are a LAME? Being a skilled tradesperson is very different from being a customer service serf, you have a lot more say in how things are done because your qualification allows you to sign off on things and your manager can't override that, even if they wanted to. As a serf, your options are pretty much shut up or push off.

This is where responsibility passes up the chain to the management who have to say 'This is what we expect, and we will back you up on it.' Ten to one...that isn't happening. If there was a culture of enforcing the baggage regs throughout our major airlines, we wouldn't be seeing these issues.

WitW.........

Yes, Unfortunately, I have to agree with you 100%, if the boarding FA doesn't have confidence that their CSM will back them up, if the CSM doesn't have confidence that the local airport manager will back them up, I guess it does make it harder for them.

Nooo....That wouldn't happen would it !!!

Of course, from the companies point of view, is there really a problem ?

Some flights are delayed a few minutes while passengers stow their luggage, I bet that doesn't count against any managers KPI...So no problem :yuk: !!

ST

WRONG!

It does count against a manager's KPI.

The problem is the airport managers want the aircraft off their ramp asap, on time.

SO, oversized bags get to the gate, the boarding CC gets no support from the ground staff, the bags make it to the aeroplane, so no delay down to airport staff.

It now becomes the aeroplane's problem, and the delay goes down to the aircrew (as the pax have boarded IAW with airport ground timeline), the ground crew close up the hold, then it's left to the CC to offload the bag, and have to explain to the passenger that the oversized bag will not go into the hold, and will be sent on the next flight.:eek:

Funnily enough, the local ground manager or team leader is usually not anywhere near this scene, and so the CC and the CM are left to deal with the irate pax, and then have to cop dirty looks (or worse) for the duration of the flight. Some have the balls to do so, others don't have the stomach for the extra grief.

The flight ops management get stung for the delay, and it affects their KPI - so then all the most minutae of details are scrutinised to see where a few seconds can be shaved off preparing the aircraft for flight can be found, including unrealistic timelines that aircrew have to work through in order to avoid an email asking to 'please explain' why their ship was 2 minutes late off the blocks.

Oh, and don't get me started on verifying that the actual weights in the OH lockers are not in exceedance of the locker weight limit - apparently, to monitor that with scales at every gate, would require 'costly' calibration and verification to each scale as they are deemed 'commercial'. Conveniently, the only system in place to 'monitor' this is - standard weights.:hmm:

As with all of these things the real reason for originally limiting overhead baggage was the effect in an accident.Do you want to be killed by being hit on the head by some bulky/heavy piece from the overhead locker or have your exit blocked by same and die by being trapped in the ensuing fire?That's why there needs to be a return to size and weight limits as originally legislated.

We have motivated our people, but we've motivated them to achieve the wrong thing. Each individual department wants to achieve their own goal regardless of whether that is good for the operation as a whole. KPI's are a flawed system and they prevent teamwork.

Ah...Thanks for that, I never realised that that was how the chain was working !!!

And the "segmentation" of the business is, IMHO, a total disaster for the very same reason you mention !

Everyone is looking after "their" KPI's / budgets / departments, completely without regard as to what is best for "The Company".

/ Bangs head against wall :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:! ! !

ST

Not sure who here is a driver, who's a CC etc... But:

If you are truly worried

1) Safety incident reports guys, that's aircrew and CC.

2) Get the "managers" to respond - I bet I know which side they will support. Now you have all the ammo you need to act without fear, one way or the other.

3) Captains can start briefing, reminding CC that safety reports will continue to go in, if they don't take it seriously (dependant of course on step 2).

4) Pax get the picture - eventually (can't hope for miracles!)

Do we (pilots) arrive at a destination with low weather, and THEN start thinking about an alternate? Do CC commece checking fire extinguishers are on board AFTER a fire breaks out?

Start tomorrow, people. Hang that, start today.

If not truly worried

1) Accept it and move on. :ouch:

It has to start with check-in staff...oh, wait, we don't have them any more with QF and J*, (Virgin?)do we. Just staff assisting people to use the automated check-in. Or people do an online check-in beforehand. So they arrive at the gate unscrutinised, and the gate staff don't pull them up. Not that check-in counter staff are blameless--I was sitting near the gate waiting for Skywest boarding in Perth last year, near a woman carrying three large tote bags. The gate attendant spotted her, walked over, and asked if she had checked in downstairs? Yes, was the reply. The incredulous attendant then directed the offender back downstairs to check in some of her excess. I felt like cheering.:ok:

And don't you just love the ******** who slams a OVERSIZE backpack down on top of your Laptop. I now try to keep it with me, not always easy on the A320 run to NTL, especially as they put most staff into the emergency rows, but they know me now, and know trying to relieve me of it, is not easy. It just fits into the Magazine rack.

Oriana, :D you have described it perfectly.

With all due respect Spanner, I have observed on many occasions the bagagge loaders being withdrawn -10 to departure and the handlers (especially in Sydney) moving off to unload/load the next aircraft. I'd regularly end up on the airbridge with 6-12 oversize bags, with no-one pickig up the phone, the dispatcher had :mad: off to god knows where and the clock is ticking.... I've done my bit... where is everyne else?

Safety reports do diddly-squat, I must have lodged a dozen or more in my time at QF on this very issue. Never got a response.

A large problem as mentioned is the pax. They flat out refuse to put a laptop bag under the seat in front. Refuse to take my advice that on the 767 the inboard locker is smaller than the outboard and stow their bags accordingly. Ignore me and do what they want. Clock ticking. Now have to rearrange said bags. Numpty refusing to put the laptop bag out of the o/h and under the seat in front of him is holding up the exit row briefing as those pax have no choice but to put their bags up (o/h above exit row is taken up with assorted sh!t like jackets, small handbags etc. Verbal altercation ensues when pax are politely asked to hold jackets and stow handbags under the seats. Pushback cannot happen until briefing is complete.

Boarding held up while bags are in aisle. Crews getting frayed tempers after copping (uneasonable) abuse from pax who think they have the right to carry on a small horse.

In my opinion these are the issues:

1. Ground crew not backing up cabin crew b/c they don't want to deal with it (quote from ground crew in Sydney some years ago "I don't get paid enough to deal with this sh!t")

2. Inadequate signage onboard (my suggestion for placards for Priority Storage for Exit Rows was ignored by 2 airlines)

3. Differing cabin configurations. QF in particular needs a separate test unit for as long as they operate the 767.

4. Clearer baggage rules printed in BOLD WITH PICTURES on the back of boarding cards.

5. Check in staff who actually gie a rats'. Unfortunately those of us that do, and try to do our jobs properly, get so pissed off with this current state of things that we quit, thus making the problem worse. It's a vicious circle.

I could go all day.

If you think cabin baggage is bad in Oz or US, come fly in the Middle East. It's ridiculous. Full hold-sized suitcases coming in as 'carry on'. Don't think so mate- back to the gate for you!!!

PS- for those who think the overhead locker above their seat 'belongs' to them- if someone has carry-on sized bags in there, and is sitting within a row or two, then they are entitled to keep it there. The locker is a shared space, there is not one for every seat. For you to move it because you're so dependent as to need your bags right above your head, is extremely rude and could leave you open to accusations of attempted theft from said bags if anything is missing. You pay for a space to stow your bag IF AVAILABLE, if not then board sooner. IF the bags are bigger than carry-on size, feel free to advise the crew who will deal with it accordingly.

Behaviour like this doesn't help the situation and often leads to fights onboard.

spanner and the rest
 

listen and listen carefully
no one is backin up a CSM or CC members when it comes to excess baggage.Try to read the updated baggage allowance domestic and international. try to find any hand luggage in transit with a transit tag.try to check the allowance for FFCL/FFPO/FFPL etc. or FFBR etc. and lets not forget the code share partners etc.:ugh: It's a lot more complicated thats why no one wants to enforce restrictions especially airport managers( previous posts on KPI's):ugh:


Its a bit like RSA(responsible service of alcohol) in the lounges. how many pax would you have to unload if you put a breathalysers at the gate?
Bars are supervised in the lounges?
Just saw another big porky flying by..............
S

I'd add that Airlines should be also pro-actively educating the few large chain stores that sell the majority of luggage.

On plenty of occasions I've seen large behemoth, wheeled suitcases proudly extolled as being the largest case that will (cough) "fit" into an overhead locker. :eek:

One of you CSM's who are planning on retireing should spend the last month or two traveling with a set of digital bathroom scales. Set them down by the door and weigh any larger bags and line up all >7kg ones in the bridge and refuse to carry them in the cabin.
It would annoy a lot of people but you'd force a change and make me laugh at the same time. It could be your legacy :) (In addition, you may save some kid from having his head stoved in during an over-run or turb some time down the track).

I travelled in cattle class today on a domestic and saw the BIGGEST suitcase you have ever seen go down the aisle (one with the four little wheels on the bottom). The CSM allowed it to go straight past them during boarding.

It only rolled down the aisle in business, once cattle class was reached, no matter how much the dumb b**** tried, she couldn't roll it down the aisle (even side on, what's the width of the aisle in a 737?).

She then proceeded to pick it up and carry it above the level of the seat backs to get it down the back.

She shoved the bottom of it in a locker and it became jammed. When she couldn't push it in, or get it back out, she promptly sat down and left it hanging precariously over someone in the aisle seat. Eventually an FA from the rear came forward and extricated it. Where it ended I'll never know.

I would have been putting it squarely up the clacker of the staff at the boarding gate and the CSM.

My solutions:

1. This paying extra for checked baggage crap has to stop.

2. Passengers who check in online should have to put their luggage in the demonstrator unit while their boarding pass is scanned at the gate. Surely the software could identify passengers who have checked in online and flag them, requiring the demostrator unit to be used.

3. Gate staff need to enforce limits - number of bags AND size.

4. Aircraft crew have to enforce limits - FAs, CSMs, and with the unequivocal support of the skipper should it get to that.

Typical of modern SMS systems. A complete waste of time (despite what Fort Fumble says).

Gee that would be nice. Much easier than dragging them kicking and screaming out of the back row on arrival after they've made dicks of themselves for the whole flight.

Gotta say (and feel free to disagree, it's just my experience), the vast majority of disruptive, violent and downright feral pax who I've seen cause problems were either intoxicated/high when boarding, or made themselves that way mid flight, usually by consuming an entire family ration of duty free spirits.

Of course a few unfortunate people are psychotic or deranged and flip out without warning, but I can only recall a handful of them versus a hundred or so drunken yobs, many of whom should never have been allowed to board in the first place. :ugh:

Again, it's not considered important by airline management (I guess most drunks travel without doing more than pissing off their fellow pax, only a few end up getting hauled off in chains) so it's not worth the aggro for the crew or the ground staff, who know they won't get backed up by the airline should said drunken yob turn out to be a cabinet minister or reality TV star. The airline with the guests used to be particularly bad for checking in people who could barely stand; dunno if that's still the case. Of course there's no check in anymore so as long as you can hold it together for the five seconds it takes you to present your boarding pass, you're home and hosed. :rolleyes: