"Oh what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive....."

Keep up the research and you will eventually catch management out.

Well after nearly 20 years using airframes maintained by HAECO I have not had one single incident/emergency.........All of my close friends in the Harbour can say the same thing.

Runs on the board I'd say.

In order to cover the reduction in capacity at QF............

Virgin Australia is looking to source extra aircraft from both Air New Zealand and Etihad.

Etihad & NZ 320's on domestic runs, there probably won't be a shortage of volunteer expat EY 320 pilots to do a stint in Australia. :E

Source Julia Gillard threatens to step into Qantas industrial dispute | News.com.au

............what is prolly the most disturbing part about all this BS from AJ & his lap dogs in the media etc is that the gen public are believing it all!!!!

I've been spoken to a few times now of late since this whole QF debacle blew up from people who work in a lolly shop for Eg, people who fix cars who run businesses that have nothing to do with aviation, they all know zip about aviation & still think that QF can do no wrong & believe that the unions are just greedy, that's the part that I feel awkward about, trying to tell these people that QF are as shiffy as a sh1t house rat, but they simply don't believe it knowing (to them) that all pilots engineers etc are overpaid!:ugh:
The last thing we need in this industry is the Govt stepping in to lean on the unions but I wouldn't put it past them, they (the Govt) are just as shifty as QF) & are in bed with each other!


Christ this is an ugly time for aviation, put the seat belt signs on guys & hold on tight!!!!!!



Wmk2

Stick to the Facts,
 

We know that Coward St is telling porkie pies but how do we disseminate this to the media.

Lets go back in recent history for a minute, April 4 2011

Fleet for sale as Qantas cuts flights

Surprise surprise…… only 11 more 738’s delivered from April.

Ok now lets see whats come since then

-VZL 34194 delivered 22/4/11
-VZM 34192 delivered 14/5/11
-VZO 34191 delivered 9/7/11
-VZP 39362 delivered 23/7/11
-VZR 34193 delivered 31/8/11
-VZS 39358 delivered 15/9/11

Since the announcement…..

-VZT 34186 delivered 15/10/11

Next that are due in the next couple months.

-VZU 34187
-VUV 34189

So we are parking 4 737-400 and have a planned (or actual) delivery of 3 737-800

And that leaves 2 more to be delivered in 2011 as per the smh article that was obviously produced from QF PR.


So what is it Alan? We are parking planes that were scheduled to be replaced anyway….

Ohhh those bad engineers that are forcing us to do this……… (thanks Oliva)

This is all open source information, all it takes is a little investigation…. But the media don’t do that anymore.

I am sure SP or someone else will know how to get this truth into the right hands.

Are the unions starting to play into AJ's hands? Just playing devils advocate but the total lack of wishing to consult properly with the unions astounds me, he is obviously doing this for the bigger picture.

The so-called grounding of aircraft (a farce) and reduction in flights (i bet they announce more even though "strike" action has stopped) has seen a increase in seat price and transfer of buisiness to other carriers, one of these being Virgin, but the worrying one is Jetstar. I can just hear Joyce when announcing the half yearly results how yield and load factor at Jetstar has increased to surpass that of Qantas domestic. Suddenly Qantas domestic isn't returning its cost of capital and he has the same argument as used with International and starts to reduce the domestic fleet while expanding Jetstar. Domestic loses everything except the capitals, while Jetstar expands with a new premium class to counter Virgin. Qantas dies a sad and slow death. The public are disgusted...but its too late, and the bonuses have been paid.

The unions need to be very careful where this dispute leads, I am starting to get the feeling that this is exactly what management want, I hope I am wrong.

Strange how the threat of Government action resulted in cessation of planned ALEA escalation till 28th of October. I'm grateful, as I plan to travel overseas on the 20th. :ok:

That has been my working thesis for quite some time. This is an asset strip - transfer all the crown jewels to Jetstar, sell it off to those "in the know", and throw the QF carcass to some other sucker ( Joe Public as an IPO post APA, now it looks like being the government). So it is no surprise to see calls to (drum roll please) Nationalise Qantas International!.

From the article:
Will the shareholders will wake up after the event and realise that they have just been ripped off blind by the (former & current) management? It would seem that the custodians of their money might just be in on the game too. The 1% looking after themselves, screwing everyone else.

As Capt Woodward has said AJ has not once stated his intent or willingness to resolve this, which leads me to think this is a ploy to other things.

The simple facts that:

A: staff have been treated like the enemy not only in the media (I refuse to call them journalists) but also in everyday operations for several years by QF management. Naturally there are always some disgruntled employees for one reason or another but the overwhelming percentage of any company's staff are there to work hard and succeed. When will QF ever see their people as their greatest asset? And,

B: this is a battle to the end that will not end well for any side. History will judge QF management as a way NOT to 'engage' their workforce into new paths.

The beatings will continue until morale improves.....

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/189...nferguson1.jpg
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4...nferguson2.jpg
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4...nferguson3.jpg
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/4...nferguson4.jpg
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/576...nferguson5.jpg

Interesting reading 6000ft-lb. I hope you don't mind but I borrowed them for Qrewroom so that QF drivers are aware of Mr Ferguson's previous experiences with Qantas service.

It's all public domain taken from
http://www.openaustralia.org/regmem/...ests_10218.pdf
Be nice to get an updated list too - may prove interesting.

To add credence to ANCDU's feelings:

**** ... we don't want the dopey Government fixing this ... we've got plans


No quick end to Qantas disruption - Joyce | News.com.au

P.S. Just some more thinking .....

Would it not be worth considering calling the Government's bluff ... and asking them to arbitrate a compromise solution ... ensuring that it was made clear that any solution that didn't include protection of QANTAS, and it's employees, from overseas pillaging and plundering ... would reflect disastrously on their electoral image.

Put the ball in their court. See how Australian or Un-Australian they really are.

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

No quick end to Qantas disruption - Joyce | News.com.au

Don't forget Qantas Customs and Qantas Quarantine (who are co-incidentally taking PIA as well), which has appeared in a few articles :hmm:

Qantas Customs and Quarantine????
 

I did not know that QF runs the governments departments as well:ugh::ugh:

And for another side to what 600ft-lb said, check the following which was forwarded to me today - not sure which business/company it comes from but feel free to guess.

http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/y...ge1_image1.jpg

Hey! Hot Dog...this deal is not about you and your travel plans, mate!!

Nice post 600ft-lb, There is your reason for Fergo getting involved !!
Seems to me, and I have said this before, the politicians are scared that their Qantas trough may be taken away from them, hence their getting involved. This, once again, shows that the Pollies are self serving grubs concerned about themselves, not the constituents that pay them. Hang your heads in shame you turds. And don't forget dear taxpayer, a Pollies frequent flyer points (and there are many of those that get racked up on the endless business class flights they only travel on) are kept by the pollies ! Another nice rort.
In fact, does it not seem a little odd that CASA officers get to choose who they fly with, and the majority choose QF because again, they get to keep the frequent flyer points as well. But hey, no conflict of interest or nepotism there from the regulator who is meant to be unbiased, as they oversight industry in a fair manner???

Yep, the governments only supposed vested interest in the whole QF situation is to save for themselves rorts, perks, treats and any other nicety they can vacumn out of the trough with their snouts.....Pigs.

House of Representatives Standing Committee of Privileges: Members' Interests statements

You will be amazed by the amount of times QANTAS is mentioned just pick a name its a free for all.

Qantas - just had another engine problem out of Bangkok!

That'll be the union's fault and will have to ground another 5 international aircraft because of it.

The link below backs up international hog driver's post. This link is on the QANTAS website.

Fleet Developments

By contrast check out Nick X's or Bob Brown's declarations over on the Senate's website. Although you may not agree with all the politics peddled by these men what you see is what you get!

Boeings Orders and Deliveries

Deliveries April 2011 through September 2011
Customer Name Country Region Model Engine Delivery Date

Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 22-Apr-2011
Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 13-May-2011
Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 22-Jun-2011
Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 07-Jul-2011
Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 22-Jul-2011
Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 17-Aug-2011
Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 30-Aug-2011
Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 12-Sep-2011
Total 8

Customer: QAN
Model: 737

737-838 added to Australian civil aircraft register 2011

“Competence. Integrity. Peace of Mind.”

Traits only found at QF? Are you sure?

“You should be aware that the labour force used in some Asian businesses is Three times the size of an equivalent Australian workforce, which negates the cost advantage.”

I am aware of this. I am also aware that in some locations in Asia and South America, the labor force is greater than 3 times the size and yet still represents a considerable savings to the business.

“The chances of the Chinese diligently and reliably following the exact tenets of an Airbus or Boeing maintenance manual are non existent.”

Really? Then please don’t step onboard CX,SQ,MH,TG,EK,KA,LH,UA,CO aircraft then.

“Of course the first people to find that out will be some poor passengers when the rear pressure bulkhead fails at 30,000 feet and kills the lot of them.”

Interesting example. The last time this occurred as far as I know was when TWO SWA 737’s ripped apart in flight resulting in huge fines for the airline as a result of cutting corners in maintenance. Are you prepared to level your “diligence and reliability” accusation at the Americans too? Or is it just reserved for folk that don’t look like we do?

“pulling work out of China and Asia”

Perhaps you could provide an example of where industry is migrating production back to a high cost western country or where an airline is relocating maintenance away from Asia and back to the west?


“They couldn't read any English, had to have their Leading Hand interpret for them (hid them when FAA did an audit) and payed them $6.00/hour.
How do you compete with that!”

You don’t.

“Fact - Qf engineers actually earn less than their VB counterparts. Even JQ engineers earn more than like licenced QF engineers. Professor of bullsh!t.”

The cost of engineering to the QF business is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than ANY other airline business in Australia.

To answer your comments.

- On the subject of Chinese diligence, reliability, trustworthiness, etc.

For starters CX, SQ, MH etc. are Asian Airlines and being Asian they know about Asian Culture and most especially they know how to supervise to ensure that they get what they pay for.

Qantas is not Asian and it lacks the skills and capability to ensure that it gets value for money in an Asian setting. You need skill sets, relationship building skills, etc. etc. which are expensive to acquire. You do not just turn up at the door and say hey! Fix this!

The Chinese have many virtues, frugality, hard work and so on. The quality of their workmanship in the textiles we once imported was better than the Japanese or Swiss. However the Chinese, like Westerners have their own set of failings (yes, including sounding like pompous prick at times), and one of them is to cut corners to save money when they think no one is watching or no one will care. They also don't have a sense of corporate responsibility like the Japanese, there is little loyalty outside the immediate family. This is how we got the melamine in baby formula scandal.

Even if you understand all that and know how to compensate for it, you have to get up very early in the morning to obtain value in Asia - it is a graveyard of Western companies that didn't take the time and trouble to do their homework.

To put that another way, where are the Asian Board members? How many mandarin speaking managers does Qantas have? How many years have they planned this great leap forward? You should have been planning this for Ten years or more and building the necessary relationships for at least that long. You do not get up one morning and say Hey! Lets do business in Asia!


Regarding "re-industrialisation" that is what analysts are already talking about in private forums that I occasionally frequent. It will be brought about by the financial chaos that is shortly to engulf the world as well as high levels of unemployment. This is also why there is pressure on China to allow the Yuan to float. The pressure for it to start happening will build until it is irresistible around 2014.


As for catastrophic structural failure I was thinking of JAL 123.

Again Sunfish is on the money.
Similarly, when developing an Asian business it is less than prudent to be quoted suggesting that you will exploit the opportunities arising in the Asian market or remarking how much Australia will benefit when the inevitable profits are repatriated back to Australia.

When are you people going to wake up. Qantas is no longer owned by the Australian public. Hasn't been for 19 years. It is now a company listed on the ASX and is owned by the shareholders. The shareholders determine what is happening with Qantas. If any of you who are long on the words regarding what Qantas is or is not doing, then your entitlement to determine whether that is the correct or incorrect path is determined by the ratio of the shares that you own to the total number of Qantas shares listed.
Insomniacs like Sunfish, Worrals, & TIMA9X and others who have regular sleep patterns and are regular contributors to the destiny of Qantas argument, why all the noise re Qantas and yet you are silent re Bluescope, Pacific Brands, Rio Alcan and many other companies doing the same or similar thing ie they are managing their company to keep it profitable. Unfortunately sometimes that means changing the way things are which in turn is not popular with the incumbent workers.

Always good to look back and learn from history. Hey fat mike, what was the intent of the sales act again?

Always good to look back and learn from history. Hey fat mike, what was the intent of the sales act again? Did Bluescope or pacific brands have a sales act as well? If so, please explain.

Hey fatmike, why don't you check out the mass losses in Pac Brand since off-shoring. It's not pretty.

I reckon one could be pretty certain that Qantas is working with the bounds of the Qantas Sale Act however that is not the same as working within the bounds of what some people think what the Qantas Sale Act means or should mean.

Didn't say that they were good decisions or that they were effective decisions, I was merely pointing out the fact that a whole lot of posters who don't appear to be Qantas employees or even shareholders have a lot to say but are silent re the other companies. That's all my point is.

I have been critical of Pacific Brands before. As for the others; I work in aviation. I am interested in aviation. I enjoy talking about aviation in real life and posting about aviation on an aviation bulletin board. Mining is beyond both my interest and expertise. No doubt there are countless bulletin boards where people talk about railways, mines, manufacturing and all sorts of other industries facing similar issues. If I was interested in those things, that's where I'd go.

I'm entitled to an opinion and as long as it's not defamatory (and the mods approve) I'm entitled to post it. If you don't like it... you're entitled not to read it. :)

I'm both a Qantas employee (with the long-service badge to prove it) and a Qantas shareholder.

Many of those commenters you mention are accurately reflecting the views of many employees and shareholders.

The exception is the very large corporate shareholders, who quite frankly couldn't give a toss about any direction at all as long as Qantas makes them money, or promises to make them money even when it's not actually doing so. It's like the stockbroker who recently caused a storm in the UK when interviewed on the BBC. He loves meltdowns and recessions in which people lose their homes and entire life savings, because he can make money out of it. The carnage and misery leftover doesn't bother him in the slightest, as long as his money is in the bank. He then moves onto the next project.

Big institutional investors loved HIH. They adored WorldCom and hero-worshipped the directors of Enron. Right up to the very last second where they lost everything.

The list goes on and on. That's what modern-day business reality has become, fatmike. I occasionally wonder what goes on inside the heads of big institutional investors, if it's anything decipherable at all.

fatmike, I think you have been proved wrong again. The shareholders met the legal requirement to get a no-confidence motion included with the AGM papers. The board vetoed it - against the expressed wishes of shareholders.

Shareholders are a nuisance, interfering with how the board run the thiefdom.

Two more 767s grounded
 

I'm sure that if Qantas has acted illegally someone somewhere will take the appropriate legal action. There are too many haters out there not to occur.

Worrals, I never said you weren't entitled to express an opinion. I said that you may not be entitled to dictate what occurs, unlike Dutch Roll who is. Dutchy, did you outlay your own money for those shares or are they the ones given to you by Qantas?