Aimpoint.
Simple really. One is a pay to fly program based on ability to pay and the other one is a cadetship where selection will be merit based and no upfront cash requirement.
One will be a proper program similar to the old Qantas scheme and the other a rip off, supply of cheap labour, where the biggest chequebook wins.:ugh:

But I'm only guessing and do not profess to be talking for Kelpie.

SS

Let's hope they don't find a training provider and the whole thing falls over, never thought Virgin would sink to the level of One*. Very disappointing Virgin!

And yes Kelpie why are you for the Virgin cadetship?

How about you await the details before you criticise? As sniffer has pointed out, not all cadetships are the same. The details will decide whether there will be support from the rest of us in the industry. Not all cadetships are crap.

My comments above aside. I see little need for a cadet scheme in Australia, due the current supply of qualified hopefuls already out there.

If it is to ensure a supply in any upcoming shortage, after the current supply dwindles, then they are to be encouraged.

SS

QF have been running a cadetship for over ten years so it's hardly a Jetstar thing. However that has ended badly for those recruited in recent times who have paid $100 000+ for flying training and are now stuck on regional a FO salary with a reasonable amount of debt one would imagine.

Hopefully the Virgin one will provide a chance of career progression rather than being left out in the cold.

Lol. Closer to 20 years. First course started in early 1990. A hiatus between the end of '92 and about '97 and then it went for about ten years. I think it's in hiatus again. Given the lack of recruiting in mainline I suspect that hiatus will be a long one indeed.

Many of the graduates of those early '90s courses are now 767 and 737 Captains.

I never bashed the cadet scheme, just made an observation. Surely many of the issues brought up in the last 18 months about the limitations of cadetships will still apply to Virgin. And who is not to say this isn't a way to reduce costs either? We don't know all of the details yet. The program could be a very good thing, I'm just looking at it with eyes very wide open and without the borghetti tinted glasses.

More info..
 

Kelpie, does this mean you have some inside information you are able to share? I have been reading this thread for some time now, and I am very interested to find out more about this program.

They avoid the biggest problem if they put them into the back seat of a 777 for a few years prior to F/O training though.

Agreed Keg. I hope they don't end up in the ATR. Just because it is a turboprop doesn't make it any easier to operate single pilot.

Just for the record I am not entirely "anti-cadet ship". It is very difficult to say they don't work when they have been adopted by airlines across Europe and Asia for many years albeit funded fully by the airline. That being said I have serious reservations whether a pilot with a new CPL and MECIR has the ability to properly support a captain on an aircraft such as the A320 or 737.

My concerns are primarily that cadet ships should not be the only recruitment stream and that they should supplement direct entry rather than replace it. Cadetships should, if used only be awarded to the cream of the applicants as was the QF cadetship once upon a time and their numbers should be highly restricted and their induction highly supervised (eg second officer for 2-3 years prior to a window seat below 10,000)

The other bone I have is the way that airlines, particularly Jetstar have bastardised the model, not only to an applicant pays system placing undue financial pressure on cadets but also by taking on cadets in such large numbers.

The announcement on which flight training provider will be awarded the contract is imminent and i expect that within a week or so the launch of the cadetship will occur and more details of the cadet ship will be released.

This is some of the information I have some of which is already out there:

Initial stages of the selection process are expected to be carried out by the chosen flight training provider with later stages having more VA input.

The selected cadets will not be expected to provide any funding upfront but may be asked to enter into a bonding arrangement.

The cadetship is 100%. Ab-initio with no advanced entry for those with CPL etc. Course duration 18 months. Course includes cpl,MECIR and multi crew course including ATPLs.

Initial course 12 cadets to commence 3rd quarter 2012.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Kelpie, do you know any further information regarding the flight training schools? It was stated that VA had narrowed it down to 3, do you know which 3 schools are/were in the running? Or do you know the final selection?

Wow, sounds like the entirety of the year 12 graduate population is going to apply, especially if no upfront cost is involved. It should will be good because if they only pick 12, there is a good chance that they won't be duds.

First 777 out of the paintshop, looks good.

http://reheatimages.smugmug.com/Civi...20120412-L.jpg

PoppaJo
 

Madre de Dios! What a beauty! Wouldn't mind being at the pointy end of that...

I think the vast majority of current captains would support your view wholeheartedly.

Training Provider
 

Word on the street is that Flight Training Adelaide have submitted the successful tender for the Virgin ab-initio cadetship.

If they've completed line training and successfully checked to line, isn't that saying they've reached the required standard to competently operate as a first-officer? Every F/O has got to start from somewhere ..

On the day they demonstrated they could fly within the required tolerances. That may be a series of sectors in CAVOK from ILS to ILS, or it may have been something more challenging.

However does that mean they can adequately support a Captain going in to a non-towered aerodrome at night for a non-precision approach with traffic and weather on the minima the next week?

You are correct, everyone does need to start somewhere, but does it really have to be in the RHS of a high capacity RPT aircraft? I suspect that accountants simply point to Europe and the apparent success of cadetships direct to RHS HC-RPT. There is a huge difference - a low vis departure to a CAT III autoland is a procedural flight from the FO as support pilots point of view. It is a series of yes/no decisions and calls that can be learned by rote. It is an entirely different proposition to the complex scenario above. That requires active management of the external world beyond the aircraft by the support pilot & requires judgment & experience in order to provide adequate support for the Captain. Not only is the FO there to provide support - he is also the vital cross check on the Captain. Captains make mistakes too.

Operators that have direct entry cadets that have SO's/ Cruise FO's provide a much better environment. They get to see how to operate multi-crew, the normal flow of the flight and simulator time to practice and make mistakes - mistakes are an integral part of the learning process. At least in this country we have a diverse range of operations to provide an excellent learning environment before stepping up to HC-RPT.

So yes, they may have passed their check ride to the minimum required standard - but is this the way we really want to operate? How are Jetstar going with their cadet program? Are the cadets flying with training Captains for a considerable period of time beyond what could reasonably be expected to make the line standard? If so, there is a reason for that, we have a different operating environment to Europe.

Training provider
 

SCPitch, where did you hear this information??