They may have had some hours sue, but it was all watching the autopilot fly the aeroplane.

When I had 2900 hours over 2000 was command, at least 1500 was on multi engine aeroplanes and most was hand flying.

There is the difference between a GA Australian pilot and a European pilot. I doubt the SO had even landed an aeroplane since flight training apart from in the sim!

Let's get back on topic, shall we?

AFAP takes legal action against Jetstar.

Any progress on this?

Actually Alistair .8 is the correct speed for the 330-200, .78 only applies to the -300

latest
 

TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: Ben Bollen, AFAP Jetstar Council Vice-Chair
DATE: 4 June 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – Update
As previously advised, on Wednesday 25 May 2011 Jetstar pilot reps met with the company to discuss what the company required to ensure that all Jetstar pilots based in Australia, including the cadets, are employed under our EBA. The company undertook to provide the details of what it is seeking within one week.
After not receiving any response from the company, yesterday (Friday 3 June 2011) I wrote directly to David Hall to express my disappointment at the company’s failure to meet its undertaking. David Hall called me shortly after I sent my letter to explain that they have been working on the requested material and that he expected that the details would be provided to the pilot reps early next week.
We will advise you of the company’s proposal as soon as we receive it. We remain hopeful of finding a workable solution to ensure that all Jetstar pilots will be employed under our current EBA.
Our campaign to stop the Jetstar Group contracts has also involved the considered and effective use of legal action which we are still pursuing. The proceedings we have commenced in the Federal Court of Australia are listed for Directions on Friday 10 June 2011 in Melbourne.
Thank you to everyone who has shown their support for our efforts during this period.
If you are not a union member or are aware of a colleague who has not yet joined a union please encourage them to show their support and join the AFAP. Application forms are available on the website www.afap.org.au via email to [email protected] or by calling the office on (03) 9928 5737.
We will continue to keep you advised of developments.
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737.
Regards
Ben Bollen
AFAP Jetstar Council Vice-Chair

"As previously advised, on Wednesday 25 May 2011 Jetstar pilot reps met with the company to discuss what the company required to ensure that all Jetstar pilots based in Australia, including the cadets, are employed under our EBA. The company undertook to provide the details of what it is seeking within one week."

Ummm You are respondent to a current legal EBA. An embarrassingly bad one but legal non the less. Why even negotiate with REG? The eba cannot be amended and would you trust this lot with any informal settlement? Either they honor the agreement or as soon as one pilot is employed otherwise, off to court you go. Granted the threat of a glassing did seem effective in the short term.

"Application forms are available on the website www.afap.org.au via email to [email protected] or by calling the office on (03) 9928 5737."

Hooooray Join the team who gave you . . . . . . .

"Seniority will be a MAJOR CONSIDERATION" blah blah blah

Iron Bar , where have AIPA been while this is going on? ...........

How about representing the 70% plus of Jq pilots who are AIPA members. Happy to be corrected but I believe REG, Jq, AFAP and FWA do not recognise AIPA as respondent to the Jetstar pilots agreement.

If that is the case, this remains an issue for AFAP.

Having said that you can be sure they have the support of AIPA and it's members.

I understand AIPA are also preparing a case, also working with AFAP on the issue.

AIPA don't seem to advertise their activities on pprune, for better or worse.

Seniority
 

Not sure how many of you are aware but the reason our industry and T&C/EBA are going down the toilet and why our management are able to relentlessly shaft us without any form of lubrication is SENIORITY.

I know it works when it's in your favour but believe me when I say, it is what's causing the rot and misery we are all witnessing.

If you were able to move around the globe (and our industry is a global one) it would be such a pleasure to walk out the door from JQ,SQ,CX,KA whomever and go where your skill set was needed and to who was prepared to pay for it.

The trouble is no one wants to give away their precious seniority. The managers, believe it or not, are not unintelligent and recognise this fact so will happily give you another rogering particularly while things are tough.

There is not another industry in the world that does what we do. In fact if you mention it to another professional (banker/lawyer/doctor) it does not compute. They literally cannot understand the concept. To them the ability to move is what makes their career.

I hope this generates some discussion. I assume the young guns will object but the more learned amongst the fraternity will hopefully see some perspective and add some pearls of wisdom.

happy landings flap relief

I'm not going to tackle the question of seniority rights & wrongs head on. What I will add is an empirical observation is that the seniority system seems to be reducing of its own accord, through an expansion of the contract market. Interestingly the now discredited jetstar contract seems to barely mention seniority. Even in the jetstar EBA, seniority is only a "major consideration", for promotions.

You may think that by getting rid of seniority you will be able to get an advantage over management, that is static thinking. Managers will never willing cede control over their workforce (human nature). They have already given us a glimpse of the new methods, which actually increases control - "debt servitude", where you owe your employer for your training.

This enhances their control, because managers can now play one pilot off against another for promotion, basings & equipment changes & "special contracts" & even termination.
One pilot job website indicates a bond of 15 years for AirAsia Cadet scholarships.

I am unaware of many bankers/lawyers/doctors who are bonded to their employer to pay for their training for any substantial length of time. Mostly they are able to use the taxpayer (HECS) system to fund their training, which gives them flexibility to change employers regularly, without having to fund a lump sum to buy themselves out of their contract.

Be careful what you wish for.

Good luck in court today AFAP!!!

Fully agree Flap Relief. Seniority distorts the supply/demand curve of the labour market to our detriment. Why else have our T & Cs degraded when the demand for our services have increased.

The last 2 companies that I have worked for had no Seniority clauses and enabled me to increase my salary at each move. Incidently, I have never paid for a type rating either.

Sorry for the thread drift But...

Antill: At your last 2 employers, were they able to pay higher salaries, or did you achieve fast promotion because of a "Superior Skill-set". If so, then the pilots you jumped over must have been of an inferior standard?

Judge orders company to stop offering individual contracts
 

TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 10 June 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – Update

JUDGE ORDERS COMPANY TO STOP OFFERING INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS

We are pleased to advise that late yesterday Justice Marshall of the Federal Court signed the following consent orders:

“Upon the Respondent undertaking to the Court that it will not make any further offers of employment, before 1 September 2011, to either First Officers or Cadet Pilots under the contracts referred to in the Statement of Claim, the Court orders that:

1. On or before 4:00 pm Friday 1 July 2011 the Respondent file and serve a Defence.

2. On or before 4.00 pm on Friday 15 July 2011 the Applicant file and serve any Reply.

3. A further Directions Hearing be listed at 9.30am on Friday 22 July 2011.

4. There be liberty for both parties to apply on reasonable notice.

5. Costs be reserved.”

The practical effect of the above orders is that we have achieved the aim of our application for interlocutory relief (an injunction to stop the company offering further contracts) while the matter is determined. The contracts already offered to the 23 cadet pilots will continue to be the subject of our legal action and we will keep you advised as the matter progresses.

While our legal case against the Jetstar Group Pty Limited contracts continues, your pilot representatives have been meeting with the company to discuss the employment of all Australian based Jetstar pilots by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under your EBA. To this end, a series of fortnightly meetings have been programmed. As previously advised, we remain hopeful of achieving a workable solution that ensures that all Australian based Jetstar pilots are employed under our EBA.

If you have any questions regarding this matter and/or to join the AFAP, please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737.

Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council

Sanity, fairness and the rule of law prevails.

Well done to all involved!!!

PG

Point 1 of the ruling..."Respondant file and serve a Defense." How the hell do you defend the indefensable?

Great result guys. Keep up the good work.

As for the clowns responsible for this mess, D!CKHE@DS!!! Maybe time to get on with growing the business. If that's at all possible with such a bunch of incompetants at the helm. Note to board: Sack Buchanan. Sack HR. Sack Joyce. Sack Hall. And while you're at it, divest youself of that treacherous Rindflesh!

Maybe then you can stop throwing good money after bad! :rolleyes:

There. I feel better now.:ok:

Is that true?

The order says that Jetstar gave an undertaking to the court that it (Jetstar Group Pty Ltd) would not to issue the individual contracts before 1st September to first officers and cadet pilots. The company (note that the company is not Jetstar Airways Pty Ltd) had given this undertaking to the union anyhow. I doubt that the parties even turned up at court given that the order was signed the day before.

Seems to me there was nothing ordered by the court other than a timetable for the submission of a defence and reply. I also note that the voluptuary undertaking was very specific and rather suspiciously did not include the rank of captain. Are FO's about to be offered upgrades on the group contract??

Neither has an Order been made by the court against Jetstar Airways Pty Ltd to stop taking 'Agency' staff from say PARC (or JQ Group) or at least ensuring that individuals from the agencies receive EBA level of remuneration rather than employ on the EBA.

Guys, do not start celebrating yet!!

Afap, whilst i wholeheartedly support what you are trying to achieveI hope You and your legal team are covering all the bases!!

Watching this one with great interest

The Kelpie

Laurie can you address the point made by Kelpie.

I am concerned the good old AFAP is once again misleading Australian pilots.

Source: Royal Bank of Scotland:

Quote:

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The news broke on Friday, but was quite widely reported over the weekend was the news that EasyJet's pilots have agreed a new pay and scheduling pact following a recommendation from cockpit union British Airline Pilots Association. The deal comprises a 4% salary increase and a 5% rise in sector pay, but the union flags that crucially the agreement also goes some way to resolving some of EasyJet pilots' long-term concerns about rostering and scheduling. The union credits chief executive Carolyn McCall will a "brave" decision to take on the operational difficulties and discuss a "gamechanging" partnership. The two sides will work under an independent chairman to resolve any outstanding problems. The ballot resulted in 85% voting in favour of the deal, on a turnout of 76%.

Obviously the 4-5% pay deal is not cheap but will, we imagine, have been factored into company guidance. The good cop bad cop partnership of CEO McCall and ops Director Warwick Brady looks to have worked well.
Plainly the market will be very focused on revenue development through the summer and on whether bad cop Warwick and CFO Chris Kennedy can manage crew costs going forward after this not inexpensive settlement. But this episode looks to earned the CEO some kudos and should have
bought the company a good dose of goodwill from the cockpit crew that should help secure the operation through whatever ATC strikes, storms, volcanoes, bean sprout pandemics or other challenges the world throws at the business this summer.

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