Another good point UU.

I remember Jetstar pilots saying the same thing 10 years ago about paying for training and endorsements.

So if the 320 pay Oz based (JQ) v Sing (3K) based is about the same, why have the management made the 3K (or is it VF Contract) 330 pay so much lower than the same type JQ base?? No prizes for the answer. However, given the history of staff turnover/ wastage at 3K / VF how many 3K / VF 330 contracted guys do management really expect to retain once the magic 500 - 1000 or whatever the Hours On Type box requirement for DEC's at Vietnam, Korean, Air China, SQ etc etc is met?

"But guess what. The market adjusts."

Isnt that what markets do?

Or is capitalism only applicable to other people?

oicur12.again, we do not have a free market system of capitalism. How can we when the most basic unit of the economy (money) is centrally planned & deliberately debased via the Central Banking system?

If we had a free market system, mistakes would be punished, and companies that made bad choices would be allowed to fail. How many banks have failed as a result of the GFC without bondholder protection? How many companies have been allowed to fail without a bailout for the bondholders? Where is the "market discipline" for the large institutional investors who made grave errors of judgement? The taxpayer has taken the burden of the entire system. Where are the write-off's of bad debts and the haircuts for the bond holders? No, its austerity for the taxpayers & workers, the capitalists are made whole.

In the case of jetstar, they can simply move the jobs offshore, but the workers have no right to strike. Capital is allowed to withdraw, yet labour is not. That is not a free market system.

I would argue to you that we live in a hybrid system central planned/socialism/crony capitalism system. Raw Market forces are reserved for those without political or economic constituency in the halls of central planning.

BFB, so when the system finally fails and we are forced into serfdom to the bohemians all this will seem irrelevant. Or are we already there? So should we not be hoarding food, weapons and fuel rather than silver and gold? It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees

Ludwig von Mises; Human Action: A treatise on Economics, Regnery, 1966, pg. 572.

ciport, All the things we discuss here, probably irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. If you look at the collapse of the USSR, it was reasonably orderly, as was the post depression era in the USA. Will we go the full Mad Max civil disorder? I personally assign it a low probability.

Thrustpig, you have it in one.

Of the chaps I know of that are considering venturing on to the 3K gig, the raison d'etre, or at least one of them, is so that they can attain the required hours on the 330. In so doing it does at least two things; opens up all sorts of other opportunities that you have suggested and gets them out of the quagmire of the seniority system that may very well hold them back from a wide body command for any foreseeable future, if at all.

Good luck to them.

Yeah! Good luck to 'em. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

NM,

But the oppurtunities will be gone, as the market will adjust downwards to the new going rate for a 330 captain :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: value our skills guys!

NM
 

Your associates evidently view 'seniority' as a dirty word while overlooking its protections... :rolleyes:

To me, even as a relatively 'late-starter', seniority itself makes me neither lazy, unmotivated nor unskilled, ( I still have to pass my sims & route checks!) but it usually provides a clear understanding of important factors such as:
a. rostered flying preferences,
b. roster stability,
c. achievability of preferences for days off,
d. family and work/life balance,
e. imminence or otherwise of promotional opportunities,
f. desirability of said promotional opportunities in line with 'd', and even
g. retrenchment order should it, God forbid, be contrived to come to that.

I'm with Mcgrath; the impatient "get out of the rut/jump the queue/get the time up so I can move on" logic precipitates the deterioration of many positions one might aspire to in the future... especially in Oz.

Each to their own, and all the best to those exercising their right to consider these positions. No doubt recent JQ events in particular have added to the sense of urgency some feel. I just hope it's all they wish it to be for the rest of their careers. :sad:

Well it would appear a small win has been achieved. Word out, contracts are now on the back burner with recruitment freeze in effect..

I find it ironic that out of the 50 recruits JQ hoped to sign up to this contracts, only 5 fools signed!! It would appear that the thought which was in the back of peoples mind (if I don't take it, someone else will) has finally been buried :ok:

To the 45+ pilots who turned down this contract, well done! You will do the JQ pilot group well with your sign of solidarity! I look forward to flying with you:ok:

Whilst on the face of it, good news I suspect this rumoured backdown is not all it seems. We await confirmation officially from the Unions

Given BB's adamance that there would be no backdown it now seems possible that he has been over-ruled by AJ under the advice of Oldmeadow who has the wider Qantas Group IR agenda to think of and protect.

Oldmeadow will see this as an opportunity to undermine the unity that is growing amongst the airline workers, particularly in the Qantas Group. There is enough bad feeling between QF and Jetstar Pilots which seems in recent times to have been set aside to a great extent in pursuit of common interests. We must not allow Oldmeadow to re-invigorate the rift between the pilot groupsand unions by allowing QF pilots to see the Jetstar guys approaching this on the basis of self interest again.

This issue is an industry issue that needs to be put to bed once and for all!!

Divide and Conquor only works if you can divide!!!

The Qantas Group do not want this thing going to the Federal court as a finding against any of the constituent airlines will thwart the wider Group's ongoing business strategy. Unity is still needed as this issue goes beyond Jetstar and the pilots. A finding in court against an of the group airlines will impact on the way that Jetstar have been employing Cabin Crew also and will spill into the QF Job security issue that Pilots and Engineering 'contractors' should be paid the same as employees!!

There is no room for back room deals - this thing must progress to the courtroom!!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Backed down....more like SLOWED down.....

So instead of having 50 FO's on more flexible conditions 600+ pilots will be on them... That's effectively what you have told the company you want! Now when the pilots fail to deliver said flexibility the company will legitimately be able to say they attempted to negotiate and give the pilots what they wanted but it still wasn't enough for them...

Essentially it says, you said you were willing to negotiate with the company so do it! Now put up or shut up....

Why do you have to negotiate? You have a valid EBA? You have no reason to negotiate! That's the AGREEMENT!

Beware a Rat, OneStar Exec who approaches bearing gifts, smiling, seeking to be your friend or asking the name of your dog.
They have shown what they are made of and the level of integrity they bring to the table.

This is their screw up, so let them show their wares.

As one wise person said, the level of trust will take a very long time to get back to normal and whilst present incumbents are breathing, this is highly unlikely to ever occur.

Good luck and be careful out there.

Backdown or back burner!

You guys sure had a win sending all the emails whilst a CASA AOC audit was taking place. Nice timing.

Ejectx3, that's the grand irony. The company never asked the pilots to negotiate. They were simply going to put some new people on contract that would accommodate the company's business requirements - which the EBA says that they can do. But the cunning pilots said NO! Don't do that - why don't you come to us and ask us to provide the flexibility you say you need? We can do that! We can negotiate! We will negotiate!