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Originally Posted by Continental520
a) there is no way for the controllers to easily know/incorporate each aircraft PTL into the job
b) The system is designed outside most aircraft capability in that it requires 'to the second' accuracy, and creates a '30 second early/late' type error The FFs are far enough away to allow speed control to generate a couple of miles separation, either increased or decreased. From where I sit, the system works pretty well. I don't get held nearly as much as before. Everybody has to do the right thing though. |
It is good to have these debates, its really the only chance we gave to talk to crews. Its hard not to get spiky and defensive though :O. I guess I've confused the issue by discussing the feeder fix time, which is different to CTMS/PTL. CTMS is s strategic device to match demand to availability using ground delays, whereas FF are a tactical tool to achieve sequencing.
Continental-520 - the short answer is its better than doing nothing, and it solves more problems than it makes. Originally Posted by Continental520 a) there is no way for the controllers to easily know/incorporate each aircraft PTL into the job b) The system is designed outside most aircraft capability in that it requires 'to the second' accuracy, and creates a '30 second early/late' type error if 40 kt faster will keep spacing between me and the one behind, why would the same controller slow me down 10nm earlier when the preceding traffic is faster? Alternatively, they may have just made an error. Monday lunchtime a 717 was given a FF/250kts - cancel FF - max speed cancel speed below 10 - reduce to 230kts, while a turboprop received hold- cancel hold turn inboud now profile speed - orbit -FF/220kts. Not even I an going to try to defend that! willadvise - (cough)fokker conspiracy(cough) ;) Edited to add : two interesting quotes from the airport master plan, Annual aircraft movements are forecast to increase from 107,000 movements in 2008 to 170,000 movements in 2029. It is considered unlikely that any of the runway developments will be required during the 20 year planning period of this Master Plan 2009. |
You think that PH airport is having trouble coping, then have a read of this:
33 000 workers needed in WA by next year | Australian Mining I particularly like this bit: As many as 90 per cent of the workforce will be employed on fly-in., fly-out contracts, which is sure to further add to the already hot debate about FIFO work. The great T.W.A debacle has not even begun to be built yet and it is already looking inadequate. :ugh: |
Originally Posted by Nautilus Blue
To be honest I don't think it occurred to any of us that monitoring compliance was going to be necessary.
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Barnett should be riding them like a mule! They are now a major restriction on economic activity and potential revenue in the west.
The Boys & Girls-in-Blue will choke on their beers... but... if you give it some thought... How many FIFO flights in the morning departure burst are off the ground and clear of the Restricted Areas before the Boys & Girls-in-Blue have started work? How many FIFO flights return from the mines after the Boys & Girls-in-Blue are comfortably in the Mess? A lot cheaper than trying to build a new runway, buildings, services and access at Perth Airport... if you can bully WAC into achieving it all by next year... and... do you really think they can? |
Most operators have figured that the PTL is not enforced so they just depart anyway. Some have done the right thing and delayed their departure for 40 mins only to cop another 30min delay airborne are are not happy about it so next time they just depart and take a chance. Just everyone remember, especially as it's going to get much much worse that the situation is neither the ATCer nor the Pilots' fault. No one is Right and no one is Wrong. The blame sits squarely at the government for privatising the airport and allowing Pearce to exist this side of Learmonth; WAC for being grossly incompetent and near sighted and Airnoservices for being.....well.....all of the above. The economy and state will suffer but those responsible will be long gone! This is not going to change until someone starts loosing a lot of money. Until then, we just have to show understanding on both sides. |
You don't know pilots very well do you? |
This is Perth WA we are talking about right ? |
With all the mixed traffic into Perth, with all the varying speeds it amazed me that a common speed requirement has not been implemented ie 160kts to 4 dme. (don't tell me it can't be done, it works well in the UK, Europe and the USofA.)
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it amazed me that a common speed requirement has not been implemented ie 160kts to 4 dme. |
Costs
How about every operator sends invoices for any extra fuel used, airframe hours wasted in holding or vectored track miles to WAC and then they can decide on the economics of an extra runway. At present the aircraft operators are bearing the cost of Perth Airports innefficiencies. The airport owner gets off scot free and still charges for it's so called services. The costs should go to the organisation causing the problem.
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I am interested in what you all tell your passengers when you cop one of these delays. Do you blame it on ATC or do you explain to them the reason for the delay is that demand for landing (or taxy) slots exceeds the supply and there is nothing that ATC/Qantas/Skywest/Skippers/Virgin etc can do about it. The only way it will improve is the construction of another runway? For those operating FIFO do you tell Fortescue/BHP/Woodside etc that the reason why there staff are 30mins late is because there is not enough capacity or do you blame it on ATC.
If not, then start doing so because the only way it is going to change is if the public and the mining companies which pays all our bills start making noise about it. |
Direct China-to-Perth flights to lift travel, tourism | Perth Now
Enjoy Perth ATC I get a good laugh out of Sydney giving these lads a bit of a chat! |
Was only a matter of when. I wonder where they will park them.
The Chinese tourists will be amazed to see and visit a 3rd world airport for the 1st time :E They will have just left the latest greatest that they got to on a high speed train. Google Guangzhou Airport and look at the pictures. Vision, planning and commitment - and probably a few billion dollars. Now that's an airport. WOW :D If we what we have is the result of the "great resource boom" economy I can only shiver at the thought of what we left behind, because the PH Airport that WAC presides over is embarrassingly cringe worthy: "We believe Perth Airport will benefit from his contemporary management style and strategic thinking along with excellent implementation." Perth is working to meet demand and cement its position as one of Australia’s most successful airports,” added Mr Geatches. Mr Geatches said that Perth Airport was Western Australia’s most important infrastructure asset. Our responsibility is to respond to this continued growth by delivering solutions which provide a positive passenger experience and enable our airline partners to operate as efficiently as possible.” “We have recognised the need to bring forward airport expansion plans and detailed studies are happening right now,” said Mr Geatches. “I also thank all users of Perth Airport for their patience during 2007. I am looking forward to 2008 which will mark some important and exciting milestones in the future of Perth Airport.” Perth Airport also serves as a vital infrastructure asset for Western Australia’s resources sector. Our partnership with the resources industry goes from strength to strength as we continue to support growth in fly-in fly-out operations Mr Geatches added that Perth Airport’s continued growth was strengthening the business case to initiate a major expansion of airport infrastructure. The Premier Alan Carpenter has described Perth's Domestic Airport as an embarrassment to the state and called on its owners to embark on an immediate upgrade. "Because I don't want to stand in queues with people who are embarrassed if they are Western Australians or very very unhappy if they are visitors coming to WA and seeing Perth Airport and thinking that somehow or other that reflects upon the state broadly," he said. The Airport's Chief Executive Brad Geatches says he shares the Premier's concerns and says an announcement on a major redevelopment will be made within weeks. "We're on the job, there's is no lack of commitment, there is no lack of preparedness to invest," he said. Perth Airport is committed to delivering world class airport facilities to the people of Western Australia. Perth Airport is an essential element in the economic and social infrastructure of this State and we agree that Western Australians deserve an outstanding airport. Perth Airport is a vital element in Western Australia’s resources sector, providing a commuter hub for the many thousands of fly-in fly-out workers who are employed on resources projects in remote locations throughout the State. The new terminal for flights within Western Australia will provide these workers with a superior travel experience, with a good retail offering and easy access to price effective long term car parking. We want Perth Airport to be a place which Western Australians are proud to call their own. That is why our plans will produce more than an airport. As well as new terminal buildings, we are looking at building at a range of facilities and features that will make Perth Airport a destination in its own right. Perth Airport Chief Executive Officer, Mr Brad Geatches said the impact of the economic slowdown on aviation demand in Western Australia has been less than that experienced elsewhere in Australia and overseas. Perth Airport has experienced the highest passenger growth rates of any Australia capital city airport, reporting a 6.1% increase in passenger numbers for the 2008/2009 financial year. Over 9.7 million passengers travelled through Perth Airport during this period, an increase of 555,815 passengers over the previous financial year. International passenger growth stood at 4.2%, while domestic passenger growth of 6.7% was recorded. The approval of the new Master Plan is another important milestone for the company’s plans to redevelop Perth Airport. We are pleased that our Master Plan has been approved and we are looking forward to implementing our plans to deliver facilities and services that all Western Australians will be proud of,” Mr Geatches said. The press releases have mainly been fluff pieces about new shops and airline services since then. Did someone say accountability? |
Ah the wonders of selling off the airports to balance the books at budget time!
Privatisation worked so well! What a great future! |
The blame sits squarely at the government for privatising the airport and allowing Pearce to exist this side of Learmonth RAAF Pearce should become a Joint-User airfield with a caretaker unit on the RAAF side and a full civilian airport built on the other side of the runways. Rename it and use it as a civilian airport until the next war. By which time WAC... might... have completed the parallel runway and terminal extensions at Perth. |
Good idea Quokka.
In the short term all they would need is a shed at Pearce for the LCCs to operate from, a bus service between the two airports, and a tweaking of airspace design. |
...and the WAC solution to the problem:
Perth Airport is to impose hefty charges on small aircraft at peak times in an effort to untangle the logjam snarling operations and preventing bigger aircraft getting critical take-off slots. From July 1, the airport will charge $3.65 a passenger for all airlines, but with a $200 minimum in peak periods, which will hit any aircraft below a 55-seat capacity. It also charges $10.44 per passenger for using its domestic terminal and $15.36 for each international passenger. Airport chief executive Brad Geatches said the new minimum peak charge was an incentive to get airlines to operate outside the peaks and to move to larger aircraft. The demand for early morning flights is driven by fly in, fly out workers. |
From the local Community News, 19 Apri 2011:
Five tender for new air terminal FIVE companies are in the running to build Perth Airport's first new terminal in more than two decades. Corporate affairs general manager Fiona Lander said the terminal would primarily service flights for the resource sector's fly-in fly-out market plus some interstate routes. "It is expected that over a million passengers will travel through the terminal during its first year of operation in 2013," she said. She added there has been increasing demand on airport services, including a record 10.4 million passenger movements last year. The single-story terminal will be adjacent to the International Terminal. Perth Airport chief executive Brad Geatches said: "all airlines from the current domestic terminals, other than Virgin Blue, Qantas and Jetstar, will locate to the new terminal. "Not only will the airlines and their passengers benefit greatly from the new terminal, but the move will also substantially reduce activity in the current domestic precinct, thereby improving our customers' experiences in the existing terminals." The terminal will have 16 check-in counters, a larger security screening zone, 14 aircraft gates and an aircraft parking area able to park 36 aircraft. The tender closing day is May 20 and the contract is expected to be awarded by July 2011. |
I thought Skywest weren't going to move without Virgin?
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"Not only will the airlines and their passengers benefit greatly from the new terminal, but the move will also substantially reduce activity in the current domestic precinct, thereby improving our customers' experiences in the existing terminals." "The move will substantially increase pressure on an already inadequate road system to get people to the new terminal, thereby drastically decreasing the quality of the TWA users experience and further frustrating passengers using the international terminal." :ugh: |
sled_driver- the devil is in the detail. Skywest will occupy the new Terminal WA, and Virgin will occupy the extension of the current International terminal towards the new Terminal WA site. Its all going to be joined in the end, so who knows why the journo had to make it confusing for everyone. :rolleyes:
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From the Letters page of The West today:
Second runway needed How sad that Perth Airport's answer to the air-traffic congestion is to "impose hefty charges on small aircraft at peak times" (Airport charges rise, . 18/4) in the hope the smaller aircraft will go away It is typical of the small-town mentality here in WA that a financial big stick will be wielded, rather than addressing the real problem. This airport desperately needs a parallel runway and high-speed taxiways and Australia in general needs a revamp of the clumsy and restrictive air-traffic control procedures that strangle aircraft traffic flow into Perth every day Many airports in WA are too small to be serviced by big aircraft and there will always be a need for small aircraft to provide for industry needs. The smaller aircraft operate to fit in with the shift-change schedules of the big mines and it is not easy for these to be adjusted. Currently a two-hour round trip flight typically is extended by up to 15 minutes because of air-traffic control delays, adding hundreds of dollars to the cost of the flight. At least one charter company in Perth is already adding this cost on to its clients' fees. Undoubtedly, others will follow suit so, as usual, the customer pays. Where else in the world would the main runway of the primary airport in the State be shut down for maintenance for six weeks, six days a week for 11 hours and extending through the evening peak period (that's excluding over Easter, of course, in this land of the long weekend)? Many other countries would be doing this essential work during the night, or at least re-opening the main runway for the evening rush hour. Even Main Roads does its maintenance at night on major roads -for example, the recent night closures of the Farmer freeway tunnel for re-surfacing. It is absolutely inevitable that we will eventually have a second runway and high-speed taxiways (which allow aircraft to exit the runways quickly after landing, thus increasing the rate of movements). Let's get on with it and join the rest of Australia in the 2lst century. Lesley Smithers, Rivervale. I wonder what the acceptance rate is with both runways operational as opposed only to 06/24 (they do cross in the middle, you know) and how does that pans out against the bill for double-time for back-of-the-clock runway grooving? The brutal fact is that two runways are only needed for a few hours a day and if the mines (and/or their flyers) were to spread their changeovers over the day, two runways would not be needed at all. Problem not only belongum WAC. The problem is well-known but unless the big miners do something about it, nothing is going to change anytime soon. What exactly is wrong with not working over Easter? :cool: |
I worked in the tower for a while, though I can't remember the exact arrival rate for 06/24 it was certainly less as we had to cater for the Heavies to backtrack and vacate at J1 or 03/21 (if that option was available) or back track to C1/S. Ditto for them to line up. I am pretty sure after the resurfacing closure W was pretty well buggered from the heavies, so I don't know if they can/are using it again.
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Arrivals / Acceptance Rates during works
TWY "W" is now commissioned to Code E aircraft which very much improves the RWY 06 / 24 only situation, heavies still have to backtrack a short distance for departure off RWY 06 and the turn on to the threshold of 24 from W is quite a wide angle so aircraft are slower to commence the take off roll, never the less in this mode movement rates of 40 per hour have been achieved with the right traffic mix, this is about as good as you get from RWY 21.
During the works there are a significant amount of taxiway closures, we are virtually operating with half an airport, there are less options on taxi routes and the holding of aircraft waiting for bays, we have to carefully manage the situation to keep things moving and prevent log jams which could quickly escalate to the point that go rounds may happen or we need to call in the tugs to pull the fur ball apart. This is especially so during periods where we have a busy arrival and departure mix typical of most weekday afternoons. Overloading of the airport system is prevented by strategic adjustment of the arrival acceptance rates, these are reduced below the typical arrival rate to allow departures to get away ensure there are vacant bays and we keep it all moving. Another big factor we have to consider is the management of an immediate runway change ie swapping ends, with so many closures this would be very difficult to manage, another reason for the "tweaked" down rates. This methodology was used with great success during the overlay last year. The restrictions for the grooving and other associated works are actually a bit worse in some respects to the overlay works, the strategy is working, its safe and the traffic is moving, if compliance regards to slots etc could be guaranteed it is likely that a positive adjustment to acceptance rates could be achieved. The next stage of works involving the construction of the the TWY A extension through RWY 06/24 will also be challenging, there will be much runway crossing of the only usable runway (03/21) plus taxy routing via the Eastern TWY system.. we cant wait.......... to have it all finished! |
Could spend hours picking that letter apart, but couldn't be bothered. For some people, 'theirs' is always better than 'ours', whether its ATC, education, health, public transport etc.
The evening sequence on Easter Thursday involved more than a few significant delays for aircraft early for their slot time :E. |
Just saw an ad on ABC 1 for a report on Perth airport and the skies around it, on tonight at 730pm in WA. Will be interesting to see what they say.
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Perth airport was rated POOR by its users in an article in this AA June issue.
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Deep investigation - all angles covered - both operators canvassed
Just saw an ad on ABC 1 for a report on Perth airport and the skies around it, on tonight at 730pm in WA. Will be interesting to see what they say. ...plus... A quick hop down to YPJT for a free advertorial from those bastards at RACWA with their usual Come Fly With Me pitch alerting the public to the current crisis affecting airlines worldwide - the lack of pilots! Come train with us now - you'll have a jet job lined up before you've even landed the 152! |
Brad Geatches, CEO of Perth Airport was on ABC radio this morning suggesting that higher charges may be applied to "smaller operators" during the peak departure / arrival times. Be interesting to see how the lines in the sand are drawn on this one.
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Toll bridge alert
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we could of course take the Frankfurt example - spend a squillion Euro on a wide spaced parallel and then only use it for landings because of the NIMBYs.
World's best practice - only move as many aircraft as the infrastructure allows. But Perth does have plenty of new car parking spots! |
What's with everybody ignoring their PTL? Seems to be a lot of unnecessary holding going on. :confused:
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Simple. Abide by them-get holding, ignore them-get holding, either way-get holding. :ugh:
If you are 30 mins ahead of your PTL you still get home 30 mins early and everyone is happy. |
geez just a stab in the dark but, maybe weather??!!!!
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JPT already a $150 in and $150 fee outbound at Brisbane
7 - 10am 4 - 7pm Made no traffic difference but good little earner for BAC |
"What's with everybody ignoring their PTL? Seems to be a lot of unnecessary holding going on. "
Your talking about ATC ignoring them right |
from Waypoint 2011
presentation by Guy Thompson, Westralia Airports Corp
[link]http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...y_thompson.pdf[/link] |
That presentation conveniently skirts the REAL issue: not enough runways OR bad scheduling! ACE will make little difference, and what's with those two new 90° taxiways off the runway?? How about four high-speeders?
Dodgy, the wx was OK (for a change). Your talking about ATC ignoring them right I reckon over 40 tonnes of fuel is wasted a day (MTuWTh) on unnecessary holding. 120,000kg of CO2 up in smoke. I never thought I'd say this but...bring on the carbon tax. |
ATC don't have the ability to punish PTL offenders, Perth Flow does though. Hopefully things will begin to improve.
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