No RNP for PacificBlue. The Company Port briefing essentially details the info above

It is work in progress but as it stands PB do not have RNP approval for ZQN operations.

Well I suppose thats one novel way of removing any chance of an airline ever hiring you in NZ....

the plane took off on runway 23 and travelled down frankton arm at about 2200 AMSL. (1100 above lake)

they followed the standard departure route at this altitude till they crossed back over land near jacks point, jardines.

upon getting there they most likely picked up the VOR and buried the throttles.

i watched it and certainly considered it unusual but they remained in VFR till they had a fair bit of altitude. i saw them last with plenty of altitude overhead the tollgate reporting point.


it does not help matter when the media talks to someone who plants his ass on a jetski all day and has no involvement in the local aviation industry other than in a company trying to start a float operation.

facts
 

Not true

ATC was on watch but do not make the go or no go decision with reference to weather. Weather information is given and it is up to the pilot to decide whether or not the required minima exists.

There is no requirement in the AIP for flights to be airborne 30min prior to ECT.

and glad you enjoy the service

Concur. That bloke's been a pain in the regions collective arse since the 1st day he was appointed. He doesn't like letting too much time pass before he sees his name in the paper again either.

When I was there, the guys and gals in QN tower/flight-service (yup, including MF) were to an individual superb. Especially when the chips were down.

This whole thing stinks to me of a media beat-up, with the charge led by the... incomparable (yeah, that's the word I was searching for :rolleyes: ) John Campbell.

So incensed was I with Campbell Lives pathetic "I thought I was gonna die" media beat up reporting, I wrote into TV3 explaining that passengers and PPLs make singularly bad and unreliable witnesses. I did receive a response from a lady by the name of Pip, she told me they had tried to find a Professional Pilot and someone from PacBlue to comment, but had found no one.....clearly they didn't look very hard:hmm:

I'm not entirely familiar with this particular departure, however, it does appear to be fairly standard with regard to the visual segment, despite the Aussies "waiting for the Captain to tell us we were going to ditch" comment:rolleyes::ugh: And this gem, "I could see the lights in the houses":rolleyes: Absolute garbage from start to finish. :yuk:

As for Campbells pained facial expressions during the re-telling of what was a departure in mountainous terrain in turbulence, it was farcical and he should review the tape....its nothing short of embarrasing:mad::=

But you've missed the most pressing problem, there are no runway lead-in lights, you can't takeoff like that! :eek:

Pacific Blue pilot charged after safety compromised - CAA
 

The Civil Aviation Authority has charged the pilot of a Pacific Blue passenger jet for allegedly compromising safety by taking off from Queenstown Airport last year after the deadline for departures.

It was reported at the time Flight DJ89 departed Queenstown for Sydney on June 22 in darkness, potentially endangering the 140 passengers and crew aboard.

CAA said today that two charges had been laid under the Civil Aviation Act following an extensive investigation into the departure of the B737-800 aircraft from Queenstown, in conditions of poor light and visibility.

"The investigation concluded that the airline's procedures and operating conditions were breached in this take off...and that safety was compromised as a result."

Director of Civil Aviation Steve Douglas said that the airline had not been charged.

"I am satisfied that Pacific Blue had the appropriate procedures in place for operations conducted at Queenstown," he said.

The matter was now sub judice and the CAA would not comment on the case until it was heard in the Queenstown District Court.

Queenstown is surrounded by mountainous terrain and has no radar or runway lights.

CAA spokesman Bill Sommer said after the incident that airlines operating out of Queenstown must depart no later than 30 minutes before twilight as a precaution.

"If anything does happen they've got sufficient time to return to the airfield and land."

NZPA

Is it a requirement in NZ to be able to return to the airfield of departure in the event of a problem? Or is there no EDTO Takeoff Adequate within range?

30 before ECT take off out of NZQN,
Interesting as this is not a rule.

So on the basis of an extensive investigation....media intrigue...and no legal requirements (apart from rigourous company ops procedures) criminal? charges have been laid under the CAA act?
What about a takeoff alternate? What about a S/E procedure that allows a climb to MSA? what about a bit more info pertaining to Pac Blue's operation? and how those reg's are supposidly used as a basis for enforcement action? (or am I missing the point?)

no need to worry arent PB pulling out of zqn soon anyway...

No but it's a requirement that you can land somewhere.
When departing Queenstown non rnp you always have a plan A and a plan B (like most flights I guess) . What this guy did was compromise his PLan B.
eg Plan A, you climb to around about 5500ft VMC, at this stage, if you have two engines you have enough height to be able to lose one, go IMC, and still get out of the valley without hitting a hill. Plan B, get to 5400ft VMC, realise you can't make 5500ft without going IMC, descend and return into a visual figure of 8 pattern at the feild, and land. Part of plan B involves having enough daylight left to be able to depart, realise you can''t meet the requirements of the departure, go into the figure of 8 in order to align with the strip, and then conduct a visual landing. The 30 minutes is to allow you enough time to do that if Plan A doesn't work, and every now and then, Plan A doesn't work. Hope that helps explain it.

Is this pilot still working at PB? Is it true he is a Checkie? Have the company supported him and handled it well?

I understand Farmer but what's the CAA's proof? A couple of scared pax who had never been to Qn before?

The only hard evidence is the breaking of the Op's manuals 30 min ECT deadline.
Trying to put a mess like this in front of judge will be hard work for CAA but with pressure on them they had to come up with something.

Fair enough, but surely the tower can tell you the cloudbase so you know you are going to be able to do the SID visual segment? I can't imagine an RPT jet operation zooming up to the base of the cloud, having a look and then figure-of-eighting back down because they were going to go IMC on the Visual Segment. Bit of a hick operation if that's the case.

As for performance/engine failure, it would seem to me that a non-RNP departure is no different to an RNP departure. Engine failure at 1000ft IMC on the RNP and then make 500ft/nm all the way up to 9800ft? I'd like to see that.

How much more do they need? Thems the rules.

Its quite a bit different. An escape path that can have curved legs wherever you want, guided by GPS instead of straight lines to/from a navaid, dead reckoning, arcs and timed turns. Who said the RNP T/O minima is 1000'?
Yep, its true.

How you navigate to avoid the hills is immaterial, provided you can.

Nobody.

Then whats your point?

RNP allows lower minimas, and more accurate tracking. Otherwise why do it?

In other words

is not immaterial at all. Technology moves to facilitate the commercial imperitive. Otherwise we'd all still be following ADF needdles wouldn't we?

My point was it doesn't matter what sort of departure you are doing, you still need the performance to make the required gradient.

If when doing the Non-RNP departure you must have the "visual return to land" option, why then are RNP departures allowed with engine failures at potentially very very low altitude in IMC, with a higher gradient requirement than a Non-RNP departure? The RTOW penalty must be pretty severe, although I suppose it's mostly fairly chilly there?

The decision to go or return is actually quite high.

Again, with RNP departures you can design in any lateral path ie as many track miles as you want, at any gradient you want at MCT to achieve MSA, allowing a better payload bearing in mind ZQN is relatively high and short and often has low QNH's.

Framer that 5500' must have been on the 200, the 800 can meet the performance req from below 3000' at Tollgate.

CAA does not have a 30 mins prior to ECT departure requirement for ZQN and at least one jet operator in NZ does not have that that requirement in their manuals.

So can the 737 or A320 make 500ft/nm from say 320ft (20ft above the cloudbase limit for an RNP dep) to 9800ft on one engine?

By using RNP (AR) departure procedure B737 and A320 can have an EF after V1 (still on the runway) and meet all the performance requirements by using the engine out SID to MSA

"Is this pilot still working at PB? Is it true he is a Checkie? Have the company supported him and handled it well? "

Good questions Pammy A. Yet another reason to justify the ALPA fees (I have no idea if this guy is a member or not)
I, for one, wouldn't want to be relying on the support of "the company", or having to retain a lawyer out of my own pocket.
One would have to assume the pilot is on "limited duties" or possibly even suspended awaiting the results of the charge.
Lesson to all...be careful out there. Your career may be on the line wth every decision.

Given that, and the fact that the normal departure requires less gradient, I don't see what the big deal is with departing and not being able to get back, providing the weather is OK up to the limit on the SID.

Being criminally charged by the CAA for not complying with your company ops manual seems a bit harsh.

Nah they can't.
For a start they don't know what weight you are at and therefore where your visual segment ends, it's a different height on every departure.
Secondly, they have the same mark one eyeball as you so there is little point. Reports from a/c are not suitable as the cloud may be at 1000ft in one part of the basin and at 6000ft in another.
thirdly, the cloud moves quickly, it hugs the hills where you are climbing out and can change in minutes, snow storms or rain moves down the arms of the lake very quickly. It's not a normal environment when compared to most jet rpt airports.

Thats the difference right there. In an RNP departure you can navigate with enough track miles to outclimb terrain. On a VOR based departure you can't unless you make the specified height for the weight you are at because your only navigation options are to A) navigate visually or B) fly a straight line back to the VOR and there is a hill in the way from many points on the departure and even if you are above deer park when you cross the VOR you have to turn north and track a radial which requires a certain climb gradiant that you won't have unless you made good in the visual segment.

Thanks Framer. Throw the bugger in jail!! :} :)

All blown out of proportion I am told.

I understand it was a Visual Dep or the ability to visually climb to S/E set hdg alt was available.

JQ ?
 

"Below MDA". Can you elaborate on JQ's Queenstown approach "shenagans"?
I heard a rumour some months ago about that. Any details?

It would seem to me of another case of the regulator making sure that it is being seen to be doing it's job. How many times have they done this and ended up with egg on their face?

Wasn't there case a while back where the judge called the CAA legal team into his chambers and suggested that in the light of new evidence that their case was probably unsustainable and did they wish to continue proceedings? Apparently they did continue and lost.

Will be inteteresting to see how this case goes.

Some facts...
 

Wow, this place could be the world’s greatest rumour mill. Here are some actual facts about the evening for those interested...

Flight DJ89 flew the Bowen 3 departure. It is a VOR/DME based departure. It has a visual segment which is about a 250 degree left turn until the initial departure fix known as Tollgate. An aircraft must reach 3800ft by Tollgate. The pilot must maintain own terrain clearance until Tollgate. From this point terrain clearance is provided by the departure procedure.

Lower performing aircraft will generally have a higher altitude requirement for the initial departure fix. For some aircraft operators this is weight dependant. Other operators use one altitude that will always work. In the case of Jetstar A320s this altitude was 4000ft.

If an aircraft is unable to depart they will generally attempt an alternate departure or manoeuver visually to land. The tracking to return to the runway is undefined, but a lower figure-8 circuit will generally be used if it suits. (Not all departures follow the figure-8 pattern, but the Bowen3 does). There is no requirement to return to land in the event of an engine failure if the aircraft is able to reach set heading.

On this particular evening the pilot was very confident he could reach the set heading altitude. He was observed easily reaching this altitude by Tollgate. At this point he was still visual.

Contrary to statements in the media, the aircraft was never operating under the Visual Flight Rules. It was at all times an IFR flight. The tower was on watch until the published time of 0600.

ECT at Queenstown on the evening was 0544z. This is based on Aerodrome specific charts rather than the area charts published in the AIP. (AD specific charts are on the Airways IFIS website).

Pacific Blue has a company requirement to depart Queenstown 30 prior to ECT. It is not an aerodrome requirement. Business jets and local operators often operate until ECT.

The aircraft was airborne at approximately 0525z. 20min before ECT. The pilot was actually ready for departure earlier but waited for a lull in the wind.

Previously a significant front of weather had passed through the field. This was the reason the flight was delayed. By the time of the departure there was only light rain. As is very common at Queenstown a low band of cloud had built up around the frankton arm/township area, around 1000ft agl.

The controllers reported that this layer was more extensive, however the tower’s view of the departure area is obscured by Deer Park. The pilot stated that cloud in the area had dissipated and was suitable for departure. He was only now concerned with the crosswind. The pilot’s assessment of the cloud proved more accurate.

When the aircraft departed it levelled out under the layer of cloud in the Frankton Arm. (It did not descend as reported). Reaching Kelvin Heights golf course the aircraft resumed climbing and followed the published visual segment to Tollgate where it was still visual.


The reports made to the CAA were made by the general public. Neither the control tower nor Pacific Blue filed an incident report.

To answer some other questions....

For those discussing it earlier, the RNP departure has a procedure where if a certain height is not reached by Tollgate, the pilot will execute an engine out procedure and track south towards Invercargill. As such terrain clearance is always provided on the RNP departure.

Pacific Blue does not fly RNP procedures at Queenstown. They are the only remaining jet operator not RNP certified. As such the general public is not used to seeing jets operating at lower levels, flying the visual segments of these departures.

5coffee said

Well it is not called the Professional Pilots Truth and Facts Network is it!

No it's not. That would ruin all the fun...

Accused Pacific Blue pilot 'is highly qualified, not careless'

5:30 AM Tuesday Mar 6, 2012


http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webconte...R6_220x147.JPG



The Pacific Blue pilot accused of carelessly operating an aircraft at Queenstown in 2010 was "probably the absolute top of the tree in terms of aircraft qualifications" his lawyer told Judge Kevin Phillips in the Queenstown District Court yesterday.
The 54-year-old Auckland pilot, who has name suppression, denies the charge.
On June 22, 2010, the flight carrying 65 passengers and six crew, including the captain and first officer, took off from the resort bound for Sydney.
The Civil Aviation Authority charged the pilot in April, alleging the plane took off in near darkness, potentially endangering the 71 people on board.
Yesterday defence counsel Matthew Muir, of Auckland, said there was a "significant danger" in elevating an alleged breach of Pacific Blue's exposition to "criminality". The flight was scheduled to depart at 4.30pm, but took off at 5.25pm, meeting the "basic daylight requirements" by taking off 20 minutes before the advised Evening Civil Twilight (ECT) time.

However, it was a potential breach of the company's exposition, so it had to be proven "there was such a failure and the pilot decided in a manner that was not reasonable and prudent" to take off. Pacific Blue's exposition required take-offs to occur "at least 30 minutes prior to Evening Civil Twilight to allow for visual manoeuvring".
"The defendant will say given the range of exposition requirements, a breach of Pacific Blue's exposition at the time ... can't in itself be equated with carelessness."
He said the captain and first officer formed a departure plan "which did not involve a return to Queenstown" and the only visual manoeuvre required was between the airport and a reference point, which took about two minutes' flight time to reach.
"It had completed, we say, all the visual manoeuvres it was going to do that day ... still with 18 minutes running before Evening Civil Twilight."
Further, a "return to land scenario" would not only represent "very poor professional judgement" but it was prohibited in Pacific Blue's exposition, given there was an "alternate airport" available and suitable in terms of weather conditions.
"We are saying that the pilot was faced with conflicting messages in the Pacific Blue exposition," Mr Muir said. The hearing continues.

This is a very significant court case. In basic terms there has been no CAA rules broken. Some very extreme and outrages media reporting which has lead to this court case.

If the CAA wins this case, any pilot can be criminally liable for any breach of their company operations manual.