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Mjbow2,
I would welcome with open arms a scientifically validated Cost benefit Analysis to determine airspace design. Common sense tells us that if a scientifically validated Cost Benefit Analysis were done in this country we would NEVER have Class C over D or C over E Preempting a CBA in such a way actually negates the need for the CBA. The assumption is that the CBA better show what you "believe" or else ! My common sense, taking into account what I know about ATS arrangements and costing, tends to think that you may be very dissappointed in the results. |
Mjbow
Could you enlighten us unworthy pilots how radar would have prevented the Hotham accident. From my reading of the ATSB report, the pilot pressed on a home made approach after being advised of the conditions from the ground. With such determination, any ATC involvement would have been brushed aside and the outcome would have been the same. Why is Launceston airport different from Broome and Karratha. Why does your zealous leader worry about the possibility of people dying in Launceston and not Broome and Karratha. What is different about the airmiss between the 737 and A320, and the 737 and the light aircraft. The death toll in the former would have been about 180. |
One thinks that Dick may have given himself a scare going into Hobart or Launceston when tower has been closed? Don't like DME arrivals and then a circling approach on a dark night, or an ILS into Hobart on a sh#tty south easterly night down that long ILS having to activate the PAL lighting, talk on the CTAF, talk on area freqency?
Are you man or a mouse? Why now show such concern for the airspace in the Apple Isle? Ansett and Qantas were the only companies that ever requested to have the tower remain open if the scheduled flights were going to be delayed. What about Avalon, Essendon, Newcastle, Alice Springs they going to get this new system as well Dick? Who closed a number towers, got rid of Flight Service many years ago and took away operational control? By the way one of your former Flight Service mates from Cooma said to pass on his warmest regards. Looking forward to your reply Dick? |
I bet the guys up at LST wouldn't be happy with you Dick, saw the news tonight and it's turned into a scare campaign, maybe he has been hired by a competing airport to help boost the numbers flying in......
Seriously Dick what is your real intentions..... |
Quite simple - to ensure that the radar and multilateration system is used in approach/departure airspace , not just en -route.
Won't cost much and it could prevent an accident! |
What about YDPO and YWYY?
What about Albury? What about Mount Gambier? What about Mildura? |
Scratch the radar Dick as the plug has been finally pulled.
Won't cost much? Really? Who do you envisage providing the service? |
to ensure that the radar and multilateration system is used in approach/departure airspace , not just en -route. Do you support that widely used international practice?? :E |
OK Dick, lets sort it out here and now
1. Virgin crew stuffed up 2. Virgin crew should have kept climbing or bugged off somewhere else and held rather than holding off the end of an ILS when they knew full well a JQ A320 was shooting an ILS behind them and could also miss out. 3. Approach plates....like the current one in my hand says climb to 3100..... This plate was clearly written with an ATC service in mind, refer my previous post. The ILS plate needs re-writing. Simple as that. 4. Radar or Multilat...well contrary to your statements on radio and other media outlets, WAMLAT is used in Launie and Hobart every day. Sure its Class D but its used for SA by the tower and CEN folk. 5. In this case the airlines were given the option and declined. 6. The media reports suggest it is a crazy risk 24/7...yet we all know thats not true. 7. Radar rated folk in Melbourne......lets get real, you want approach rated folk in Melbourne after Tower hours to cover about 5 or 6 arrivals a year??? 8. Sure they could provide Class E after hours.....but for the cost of keeping approach rated folk in Melbourne for the 5-6 arrivals after hours a year it would be far cheaper and make more sense to have the Tower guys in for a full shift or on call when needed..........you just need to force the airlines to pay for it. How do you have folk in MEL CEN rated and CURRENT (21 days) for 5 or 6 flighst a year.......ohhh and every other D/C tower that is closed at night. 9. When Class E approach can not be provided.....what then? Call in the Tower guys??? 10. I think you do not understand the difference from a busy daytime terminal area to an after 10pm area. Maybe the USA is busy 24/7......but Tassie is not. 11. I have been into LST in cloud....not that scary. Even with a VB jet departing.....ohh yeah the TWR was manned and managed it well, I am sure others here know what I mean. 12. So its not about using radar, which they do, its maybe all about getting the ILS plate fixed for the odd time when the tower is closed. The rest is all about frightening the public. For heavens sake the VB/JQ folk never even had an RA and if they had requested the tower stay open.....it would have. Your focus is clearly in the wrong area, and that is a great shame. J |
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:ok:
To be fair to the VB Crew, I reckon they did what 'FMS Betty' expected them to do after missing out. I don't blame them! ;) |
To put it another way Dick ...
If two RPTs mis-managed their self-separation at Yulara , after hours, would you insist on an Approach service being installed there? |
You have a point Chaser....but hey they are paid to think about the full picture..Just unfortunate they found the week link in the approach plates, and did not have the forsight to deal with it when circumstances came to bite them on the butt:uhoh:
Peuce....stop being childish...if not correct :ok::E Howaboutit Dick.....Answer all my pointes there. Convince the rest of us we are just head in the sand. |
Dick,
The surveillance system is being used by the ATC's at LT and HB. Many of the then have held RADAR ratings and are highly experienced at their profession. When do you plan on coming down and apologising to the Tasmanian people for the scare campaign you have created? |
Some facts Dick - maybe you can stick it in your Flyer
Dear Sir/Madam, In response to concerns about aviation safety in Tasmania, I would like to make the following observations: The incident in Launceston was neither a "near miss" nor gross abrogation of responsibilities on behalf of the controller involved. In this scenario the tower controller may have been able to extend to cover the arrival of the two jets but both were operated by companies that have a policy of not wanting the tower to stay open, as it attracts additional charges. When the tower is open, controllers separate the aircraft down to the ground. The Air Traffic Control service could be provided by local ATC should it be required by government and airline operators. At present the operators are unwilling to pay for the service. The proximity of the aircraft was less than desirable but not dangerous. Of more concern from the findings of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau report were that it appears the separation may not have been effectively managed in the 2 cockpits to ensure that that no collision risk could occur. Airborne collision avoidance systems fitted to both aircraft did not alert the crews of the possibility of a collision because such a risk did not exist. The systems did provide valuable information to the crews as to the relative positions of the aircraft and, ultimately, positive action was taken to emplace more separation between the flights. The availability of the since decommissioned radar at Launceston at the time of incident was, unfortunately, immaterial to the outcome. The aircraft were operating on a frequency specific to Launceston and not accessible by Melbourne ATC. The controllers, who did have access to radar, simply could not talk to the aircraft. Had Launceston tower been open, the local controller would have managed the separation without radar as they do not have a display that is usable for Air Traffic Control. Whilst it may seem unsafe to the uninitiated, there are hundreds of thousands of aircraft movements across Australia every year, safely managed by highly skilled ATC and air crew without radar. Particularly in Tasmania, the ability to hop on a flight across Bass Strait provides an invaluable link for many to keep in touch with friends, family, work, holidays and study. So should we be scared? The incident, in context, is certainly a less than desirable situation for the customers relying on air travel. We should be concerned, and hold the authorities involved responsible for emplacing procedures and/or services to prevent future occurrences, but need not be frightened. The simple truth is that the most dangerous part of the journey remains the drive to and from the airport. President, Civil Air The Australian Air Traffic Controllers' Association |
I'm really enjoying the spirited banter in this post.:)
In case any of you missed it in the last post from Freedom, radar is no longer operational in Tassie and we now only have WAM.:{ All arguments referring to radar are null and void. We all have to trust that WAM will now be as reliable and accurate. I'm told it's better but I will reserve my opinion at this time.:oh: |
From The Mercury website,
A JET will hit another jet or a mountain because of the archaic system used to separate aircraft near Australian regional airports, including Launceston and Hobart, says an experienced Virgin Blue pilot. The pilot, who flies to both Tasmanian airports and has flown extensively overseas and within Australia, said it was only a matter of time before there was an accident. He said it was disturbing that antiquated separation procedures, involving aircrews radioing each other with their positions, was still used at regional Australian airports when full radar coverage was available. "It is just ridiculous," he said. Overseas, radar-based systems were the standard. The pilot's comments followed criticism by former Civil Aviation Safety Authority chairman and adventurer and entrepreneur Dick Smith of a "third-world" aviation system in Tasmania. Mr Smith's comments were prompted by an Australian Transport Safety Bureau report last month of two aircraft narrowly avoiding colliding near Launceston Airport. The report, completed two years after the incident, made no recommendations. Federal Transport Minister Anthony Albanese said yesterday he asked in May last year for a report on the safety of air traffic services at 10 regional airports including Launceston. This month he had received CASA's final report and had asked Airservices Australia, which provides air traffic control, to work with CASA to implement the report's recommendations to enhance safety at regional airports. The Virgin Blue pilot said it was normal to drop radar coverage from Melbourne about 30 nautical miles from Launceston and Hobart airports, despite the two Tasmanian airports having radar systems, and start talking to the local towers. Outside Tasmanian control tower operating hours, air crews needed to talk to each other to maintain separation. Pilots' biggest workload was landing and departures and taking away the separation provided by radar increased the workload greatly. The pilot said the near miss over Launceston would have been avoided if Melbourne radar had had control over the aircraft movements, and it would have provided full separation right to the runway. Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said operations at Launceston and Hobart airports were safe and Tasmanian airspace was safe. Virgin Blue spokesman Colin Lippiatt said flight crews in the Launceston incident had been aware of each other and of the need to maintain adequate separation. The ATSB said it stood by its investigation of the Launceston incident and the report was an "appropriate reflection of the circumstances". The pilot said the near miss over Launceston would have been avoided if Melbourne radar had had control over the aircraft movements, and it would have provided full separation right to the runway. Who is going to issue the Landing clearance/MA? - ML Radar:= If you require a service ask for one. Then the near miss over Launceston would have been avoided. Controllers would be be more than happy to provided any services as agreed between ASA and Airline companies. And regardless of whatever your fantasy of Tasmanian airspace is it does not matter what airspace ML own, you still need the coalminer looking out the windows and the Runway. :ok: |
Nokhead,
All arguments referring to radar are null and void. |
Tell me again why anyone is opposed to ATC and radar coverage for RPT arrivals and departures? You've got to pay the piper eventually...or risk hitting one-right?
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Tell me again why anyone is opposed to ATC and radar coverage for RPT arrivals and departures? You've got to pay the piper eventually...or risk hitting one-right? Tasmania has "radar" from the WAMLAT system and its used as a SA tool in Class D services from the surface to A085, above that its MEL CEN. So whats the big deal? Now after tower hours its Class G, just like much of the country. YBSU for example. No big deal again. If there is RPT after tower hours, its most likely due to delays, and if requested an extension of the service is available. So what is the big deal? Why have approach rated guys sitting in MEL when the Tower can be manned with the tower/app guys for a fraction of the cost of having additional folk being trained and kept current for the odd time (5-6 times a year) in MEL CEN. What Dick says is true....you could have it, what he fails to understand is the system is already in place and is better, and cheaper. All you have to do when there is a severe delay due weather or a/c breakdowns is request the tower be manned for a very small cost. Media beatup for some hidden agenda me thinks! := Using facts in isolation to scare the public for some hidden agenda.....well its not that well hidden to us here though is it:hmm: J |
Jaba,
You've just about hit the nail on the head and covered all the issues. The service is there for the asking (and paying) already. And who could argue against User Pays. But obviously, the user doesn't want to pay ... so direct your campaign at the Airlines, Dick ... if you must. P.S. Does anyone know what it actually does cost to keep the Tower open? |
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