QF also cancels flights.. the difference being QF, due to the scale of the operation, have far more ability to recover any lost flights. You want full fare, pay full fare. You want budget, pay budget. There is a difference but realistically, the possibility that it was your friends flight who was cancelled, probably 1/50. You have more chance winning a round of roulette then being on a cancelled flight with JQ.

Tell that to the punters in Darwin. They are less than impressed with the service/cancellation rate with JQ and usually don't have the option to jump on QF. Especially if JQ are the only ones operating on a route that was gifted them by QF.

Albo's too busy worrying about flight deck access than whether or not a CC member is alert enough to potential problems at the end of their duty.

Absolutely correct, BUT surely the CC have a duty of care NOT to operate if this is the case....

I started this thread. JQ crew told me 1 x 330 was broken thus the Bali SNAFU, and they only have 7. So the Hawaii cancel is another down line from this.

Juliusg,

How long have you been a flight attendant for JQ? Perhaps a different vote on your EBA might have more impact than posting here.

GB

Regardless of the outcome of any EBA vote, are you seriously advocating that passengers should be looked after by Cabin Crew who have been on duty 18+ hours without reasonable rest facilities. Take into account getting ready for work and travel, it would be reasonable to expect that the CC would have been out of a decent bed for around 24 hours. And really, a Y class seat in a low cost A330 doesn't really cut it for rest.

Oh....for that reason second rate service is fine and dandy? Nice to feel wanted.

Just like the poor punters on JQ 942 last night, BNE - CNS scheduled departure 2040. ..."Sorry guys, you are all going to CNS via TSV now as we need to drop of a Gingerbeer as another fine example of our JQ aircraft has gone tech and we don't have anyone up there to fix it".

Puk the fact that 180+ punters did not want to go via TSV, just wanted to get home.

Hopefully you guys are just tongue in cheek, I would hate to think that you see merit in any of this.

So the cabin crew had a long day.....

But where is the safety bit?

Did the skipper not get his/her coffee, or where you 3 scotch and cokes short in your service?

What am I missing here?

MP

Managers Perspective:Just about everything, but thats got nothing to do with this topic.

Tell that to the many mining industry and assciated support industry employees up there that deserve a lot better.


And what's the point to JQ's low fares when you buy one, organise business around it, and then JQ cancels the flight because they don't like the load factor that day. Too bad, so sad you might say.


Hopefully under new management, Virgin blue will be able to reap rewards out of the QF/JQ second class treatment of the people of Darwin and the Northern territory.

Note with interest the latest developments at VB Mr T-Vasis. From somebody who travels through Darwin on a regular basis, Virgin could definitely gain from an increased presence there. Particularly when they get their new premium product sorted out.


And if you wish to quote me, do it accurately. I never said JQ cancel flights due to load factors on a DAILY basis. However, the do so with an annoying regularity.


As for Darwin being well supported by JQ, they would be nowhere without big brother QF backing them up. Particularly with regards to engineering.

A Typicial Answer
 

from managers perspective.
"So the cabin crew had a long day.....But where is the safety bit?"
18 hrs plus without a proper crew rest or descent break does not have an impat on safety ??? how thick can one be??
unfortunatly this quote is the mind set of todays QF/J* managers.:ugh::yuk:

Actually, it is Jetstar who are fortunate to have the expertise of Qantas available to them. If they really had to compete on a level playing field, and invest in all their own infrastucture, they'd still be the size that Tiger is today.


Set up their own jetbase, get real. That would blow their cost base clean out of the water. The Jetstar experience with outsourced maintenance providers elsewhere like JHAS is proving far from ideal and they know it. However, there's stuff all they can do about it because to gear up themselves properly would be more than the Management are prepared to lose in KPI bonuses. Therefore, JHAS has them over a barrell.


One big problem all LCC's will face in the future; When oil returns to a price of around $174/barrell like it did not that long ago (and stays there) they'll have little margin to absorb that extra cost. That is, unless of course, big brother steps in and buys fuel for them.

T-Vasis - without a doubt the consumer is the ONLY winner in the changes in the industry in the 'bad old days'. Sadly tho in order for the caravan folk to get a cheap weekend down on the gold coast means that all involved in the industry are now on the whole earning less than people were getting 15 years ago.

Fanastic system for the consumer - although the thong and mullet crowd still expects the same treatment and service they were getting for a $800 return trip to SYD from MEL in the 90s.

The only loser in deregulation has been the employees Ts & Cs.

Quote:

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Set up their own jetbase, get real

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And that is why no other LCC in this country has their own maintenance business; it's all outsourced. Jetstar would simply do the same for line maintenance in Darwin, which is all that is provided there from what I understand.

Every player has received investment from somewhere - be it Tiger or Jetstar. Be it through infrastructure acquisition or capital injection.

If JQ's experience with outsourced maintenance providers is far from ideal, why does it work with Virgin and Tiger? Or isn't it? Keep in mind, Newcastle is in-house. It's not all outsourced unlike the others.

LCC's have greater exposure to fuel price as you've expressed. Margins are much thinner and revenue is driven by volume and ancillary revenue. That said, with regards to fuel and hedging, whether Jetstar obtains pricing procured by Qantas for fuel, it's still down to the hedging/buying teams within all the airlines who ultimately can go the right or wrong way. From what I read last year, Virgin hedged poorly whereas Qantas hedged well...

Puff - totally agree with you on the erosion of conditions. The flip-side I guess is the opportunities to work in this industry, be it crew, operational or corporate, are greater then what they were in the 'old days' and for that, I am grateful.

You're on the money puff!!!
 

What puff had to say above was spot on! Yep, the consumer is the winner... at the expense of safety, wages, loyalty and job satisfaction. I've been in this game for 25 years and my old man worked for TAA/Australian for 30 years and between the two of us we've seen the gradual decline in our industry. Sure, there were many lurks and perks that we engineers and pilots had in the old days that were simply ludicrous, but now that we are being driven by bean counters, safety and reliability is definately the big looser. I predict that before too long, us proud Australian aviation employees will not be able to hang our hats on our enviable safety record... I truly hope I'm proven wrong here!!!

It's time to tell the mullett and thong brigade that operating and maintaining an aircraft is an expensive business and that they need to crank up their VB Commodores or go back to purchasing a Grey Hound ticket and hit the road ya loosers :ok:

Ask the average park dweller how much they think a shiny new airliner costs to buy or lease? I've had some estimate as low as $50,000!!! Morons :ugh:

Back to the thread - 18 hours duty time is dangerous and should be stopped. What will management say when they crash their car on the way home from that sort of shift and kill themselves because they were so fatigued? Yep, you're right... this current generation of bean counter managers couldn't give a f*@k :mad: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Newcastle would be fine as a heavy maint. facility for 10 A320's. Not the nearly 50 Jetstar have about the place. Jetstar have been procrastinating for the last 18 months as to where to build a second heavy maintenance facility. Mind you, they could be deliberately doing that until a cheaper and nastier option in asia presents itself. Again though, a new maintenance facility here requires investment in something other than marketing. And the bean counters who run airlines these days, that make decisions based merely on the next fiscal quarter as opposed to the next decade, can't stomach that.


As for Jetstar setting up their own line maint in Darwin, there is only one thing missing. Qualified and experienced staff willing to accept the poor pay and conditons. Unlike cabin crew and even tech crew, there is a worldwide shortage of engineers. So, the supply and demand curve certainly isn't in the favour of any LCC at the moment.Why would anybody leave any other airline or MRO for less money and worse conditions at Jetstar? If you think the answer is some 457 visas, think again. The only way for Jetstar to remedy that is for Jetstar to improve their pay and conditions to attract experienced staff (God forbid they should have their own apprentice scheme). But no, can't do that. Increase in pay and conditions erodes the coveted cost base (and managerial kpi bonus). Stuck in a catch 22. If Qantas engineering or Virgin Blue engineering decided to expand and aggressively recruit, I suspect the guys at Jetstar would jump at the chance to earn more money with better entitlements.


As for Virgin, they do all their own line maintenance these days. Jetcare no longer has the gig. Tiger, they're stuck with JHAS until they try to follow Virgin's lead I suspect.