QantasLink Sydney 26 Dec 08- astonishingly unsafe approach?
Late yesterday the independent air safety investigator, the ATSB released a damning report into an astonishingly unsafe approach to Sydney Airport by a QantasLink turbo-prop at the end of a flight from Moree on Boxing Day 2008. Qantaslink cockpit failures exposed by ATSB report – Plane Talking AO-2009-001 I am not sure if this was "astonishingly unsafe" but there are some shades of recent accidents with unmonitored airspeed on final (Colgan at Buffalo). Does this incident have serious safety implications which are being kept from public scrutiny as Sandilands seems to suggest or is his article another beat up? :confused: |
Originally Posted by paulg
I am not sure if this was "astonishingly unsafe" but there are some shades of recent accidents with unmonitored airspeed on final (Colgan at Buffalo).
Also I am not sure why the ATSB is associating a FAF with an ILS. Precision approaches have FAPs, not FAFs. Their reference to non-compliance to the SOPs excerpts listed does not make sense to me. The FAF listed on the chart is for the non-precision approach (LOC 34), a pure ILS approach, like YMML ILS-X (the CAT II & CAT III) only has a FAP. http://www.airservices.gov.au/public...MLII04-123.pdf |
Did I read that right?
At the time the PNF PIC was writing down a "Landing Clearance".... Is that SOP peculiar to Qantaslink? If this is indeed an expectation - that the PNF (and PIC in this instance) have a pen in one hand and something to write on in the other - at such a busy point in an approach then the world has indeed gone mad. That is the layman's equivalent of writing, texting, GPS programming, while driving in traffic and the people that come up with these ridiculous 'ass covering' procedures should be held accountable. In fact we need a sea change - they need to be made to chew on the indecipherable 800 page Ops Manuals that they, and the authorities, come up with. |
people that come up with these ridiculous 'ass covering' procedures should be held accountable. |
ATSB is a little lacking on the detail here. Chatting with a Qlink mate about this a while ago I was told that with the landing clearance the tower also told them to exit at taxiway Foxtrot and it was this information that was written down.
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Also I am not sure why the ATSB is associating a FAF with an ILS. Precision approaches have FAPs, not FAFs. Their reference to non-compliance to the SOPs excerpts listed does not make sense to me. |
SWH
The FAP is co-incident with the FAF of a localizer-based non-precision approach in Australia. What are you trying to refer to with the ML16 chart? Where do you think the FAF/FAP is? G/S intercept at 4000' or 3000' or where? Clear as Mud. |
When I was at Eastern the technically correct procedure to comply with the FAM was to write down the landing clearance on the Landing Card.
So there you go.....Ass covering indeed. I think the captain involved was actually a checkie to boot !!! GUARD:ok: |
When I was at Eastern the technically correct procedure to comply with the FAM was to write down the landing clearance on the Landing Card.
So there you go.....Ass covering indeed. I think the captain involved was actually a checkie to boot !!! GUARD Was never the case when I was there, and I was a Checkie, and not that long ago either. |
So, was that the one with check Capt. Flan-diddly-anders and the cadet FO? Heard it was almost a loss of control event :E
From memory the taxi light was used for landing clearance. |
That is the layman's equivalent of writing, texting, GPS programming, while driving in busy shopping centre...
Originally Posted by ATSB report
As a result of this occurrence, the operator has proactively implemented changes to its DHC-8 training syllabus, highlighted to its crews the destabilising effects of changes to an aircraft's configuration during an approach and emphasised to crews the importance of good communication in a multi-crew environment.
Next they'll overshoot the turn onto final because of a crosswind. :rolleyes: |
Where does it say the FO was a cadet. Having 2100hrs total including 220hrs on type is more than enough to operate as an FO. I am afraid it was just a stuff up, luckily no sad outcome!
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Having 2200hrs total including 220hrs on type is more than enough to operate as an FO |
desmotronic
Very true, but you could ask, what was the Captain who was very experienced doing? How would an ATPL make a difference in this case? |
How would an ATPL make a difference in this case? you could ask, what was the Captain who was very experienced doing? |
From desmotronic
Obviously not in this case and why no ATPL. What difference does "no ATPL make? I never completed my ATPL exams until 6,000hrs plus. Am now a Q300 Captain with in excess of 11,000 hrs |
I never completed my ATPL exams until 6,000hrs plus. Am now a Q300 Captain with in excess of 11,000 hrs What difference does "no ATPL make? |
Immediate report
2 pilots a CVR,FDR and radar tapes. And it takes 18 months to issue this final report? And it doesn't even talk to much about the FOs training? |
Am now a Q300 Captain with in excess of 11,000 hrs Mind you, I was a 146 captain when I had around 3800 hours... yeah i don't think many people are going to be impressed with your progress at 11,000 hours! |
I sense a bit of dick waving going on here. Lets get real guys, we all do sims..
we are all human..know what I mean. |
Originally Posted by remoak
FAF and FAP are exactly the same thing. FAF is the ICAO usage and FAP is the American usage.
On an ILS the intercept point to the final approach segment is known at the final approach point. It is not a fix since the exact location varies depending on how the approach is flown, where the wind is coming from, the speed of the airplane, and other variables. If you look at this approach for RW 16 at MEL, the LOC is overlaid. This chart has the two published FAPs as the ILS only chart I linked above, (3000 STAR and 4000) for the ILS, and one FAF for the LOC (6NM ML DME). The Australian AIP includes references to both the FAF and FAP.
Originally Posted by Mud Skipper
The FAP is co-incident with the FAF of a localizer-based non-precision approach in Australia.
Originally Posted by Mud Skipper
What are you trying to refer to with the ML16 chart?
The ILS/LOC charts for the same runway refer to the FAF, as they have the LOC approach overlaid.
Originally Posted by Mud Skipper
Where do you think the FAF/FAP is? G/S intercept at 4000' or 3000' or where?
If you were doing a STAR it would be at 3000 STAR, otherwise 4000. They are the published minimum altitudes that intercept the glide slope. |
I sense a bit of dick waving going on here. Lets get real guys, we all do sims.. we are all human..know what I mean. |
m sure I've missed your point. You cant be saying that a shaker while conducting an ILS is every acceptable under and circumstance |
On an ILS the intercept point to the final approach segment is known at the final approach point. It is not a fix since the exact location varies depending on how the approach is flown, where the wind is coming from, the speed of the airplane, and other variables. If you were talking about non-precision approaches, then you could say that the FAP lies within an area 5 degrees either side of the approach axis... but not for an ILS, where it is on the localiser at a specific height and/or distance. I'm not sure what the point is that you are trying to make from the chart, as it doesn't define any FAP that I can see (other than by inference). |
The ATSB report seems a little on the 'thin' side. What was the reason for the PF not going around after the captain called for it? Loss of face?
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All from AIP GEN 2.2 (definitions); Final Approach Fix (FAF): A specified point on a non‐precision instrument approach which identifies the commencement of the final segment.
Final Approach Point (FAP): A specified point on the glide path of a precision instrument approach which identifies the commencement of the final segment. Note: The FAP is co‐incident with the FAF of a localiser based non precision approach.
Simple FAP equals same location as FAF for localiser approach, regardless of where you join the ILS. |
Originally Posted by remoak
All ILS plates show an ideal approach profile and there is no latitude for weather conditions, that is why it is called a PRECISION approach.
An aircraft maintaining 3000 ft, is not an absolute 3000 ft, it is not QFE, is it subject to the local variations in the column of air that the aircraft is flying in, i.e. temperature, lapse rates, QNH, inversions etc all change the altitude. Also the ILS is still an analogue style approach aid, it is the onboard equipment that looks at the various lobes to come up the ILS path.
Originally Posted by remoak
The FAP/FAF is a defined point in space.
Originally Posted by remoak
Maybe there is an odd Australian interpretation that you have found, but it certainly isn't in line with the ICAO definition.
Originally Posted by 43Inches
Simple FAP equals same location as FAF for localiser approach, regardless of where you join the ILS.
The FAP is "A specified point on the glide path of a precision instrument approach which identifies the commencement of the final segment." The note "The FAP is co‐incident with the FAF of a localiser based non precision approach.", this is for when the glide slope is U/S. It is not the non-precision LOC approach, not the ILS. For your comment to be correct you should have written "Simple FAP equals same location as FAF for localiser approach, regardless of where you join the LOC." |
Sorry SWH but your interpretation is incorrect, the FAP on runway 16 at melbourne is at 5.7 IMS (ILS-Z) passing 2240 AMSL on descent. The aircraft must be established in the final approach configuration passing this altitude/distance.
The only way you can specify a point on the glidepath is by altitude or distance from a fix. The FAF for the localiser is at a DME distance or the OM which gives you a horizontal fix point on the glideslope which should be coincident with descent passing the FAP height. At an ILS with no DME measure then the Outer Marker is usually the FAF/P. It is at the same DME distance as the LLZ FAF but the aircraft will be established on the Glideslope as well. For the ML 16 ILSZ Bolida is the IAF (STARS and vectoring aside), 2240AMSL passing 5.7IMS on slope is the FAP. Therefore initial segment and speeds from BOL to 2240 on descent then final segment and speeds to the DA. The note "The FAP is co‐incident with the FAF of a localiser based non precision approach.", this is for when the glide slope is U/S. It is not the non-precision LOC approach, not the ILS. As a final note please refer to the Sydney ILS PRM plates, the LLZ is not permitted and not charted. In these cases the FAP is marked, not at the glideslope intercept. |
Take it Outside Lads
Unless any of you want to assert that the differences (if any) between a FAF and FAP had some kind of effect on how the aircraft was or should have been operated in this incident, how about you take it somewhere else.
This incident clearly highlights some substantial CRM issues, and I for one would have liked to see a more thorough discussion by ATSB and the company as to how they can/have/should be addressed. Perhaps if we could dispense with irrelevancies, we might have a reasonable discussion between professionals here? |
Yes Icarus you have pointed to the real issues. Also should the ATSB processes and airline's responses be more transparent and open to public scrutiny?
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Shoulda', coulda', woulda'! DeHavilland didnt install stick shakers for fun, they knew something...
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Oh.. for the perfect world! Sh#t happens....
Get over it! :ugh: PS. People die every day on our roads! Why do we make such a fuss over avaition incidents! |
PS. People die every day on our roads! Why do we make such a fuss over avaition incidents!
Very probably because if such a fuss was not made over incidents there would be more accidents. |
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