Nonsense. There are alot more Avionics on the newgen aircraft.

Correct....because we don't want to affect your job security now, do we Jack?

Just give it time......

Well guys i think its only a matter of time until the Cat A lic will be in:=

Why do you think that the AME's had to do some more training before they joined Team A380,Is this so in the future they can get there Cat A Lic very easily and well if some of them took the carrot to get straight to level 12 after there time as a snork i think alot of them would take the carrot to get a Cat A lic as well. potentially reducing the amount of B1/B2's reqd

Anyhow time to get in the trench and take cover :eek:

I read the A380 agreement with interest hoping to be a part of the operation but after seeing it in action I had second thoughts and didn't. The tension it has caused here made me think I had made the right decision but now some of us guys here at SIT may be sent to the hangar I may well wish I had of.

Ooooo ..... you've stumbled on the master plan, what rocket scientists you are !. By the end of 2010 you'll see it come to fruition and most of you regardless of trade will be out of a job.

I normally dont feed trolls (jonny v) But while ever those big silver birds have big round black tyres i think we will have a job for life, does this style of writing suit your pathetic little boy playground antics jonny ?

Had my reservations about the selection process but after hearing the names, I am very pleased. A lot of quiet achievers. And although management didn't get to choose their golden boys, I am sure they won't be dissapointed.
Well done guys...

Well done ALAEA & FEDSEC. Please keep your eye on the ball leading up to next EBA.

Only problem is a few "Maintenance Watch" types got it too. Pity we cant get the right guys to train that actually work and don't suck cock.

After seeing the names of who got what, while not knowing all of them I'd have to agree with Quill :ok:. I am happy to see more mech training as the company neglects us :mad:, I am suspicious though that the ratio of 10/1 is a deliberate step to open up the rift that the ALAEA had closed successfully during our PIA :=.

Some of you people need to do some research regarding the CAO 100.66 system before you shoot your mouths off on here. Five minutes on the CASA website would save alot of the BS some of you write.

Ngineer, you're right, there is alot more avionics on these new types- most of which can be certified by a B1.1 LAME. I suspect a ratio of about ten to one is about right. If a B1.1 guy can cover all Engine, Airframe and Electrical also LRU with BITE on Instrument and Radio how many B2 guys do you need on Line or even in Servicing?

and they could, with a swipe of a pen, allow dentists to preform brain surgery even though they have no qualification or training to do so. They are both doctors aren't they? :rolleyes:
Doesn't mean it is safe or ethical to do it.

Nonsense. B1 guys are trained and qualified to do so.

The new system makes more sense, especially in line maintenance, with one LAME being able to certify all tasks for 99.9% of turnarounds.

Any cone that's worth his salt will be trained to B2. Alternatively, there's no reason why you guys can't get your basic B1 MA to be eligible for a B1 type course. So don't stress fellas, I'll even give you a hand with your first lube:}

I fail to understand how the rest of the world is wrong in their aviation licencing.

How is Australia's relic system which has been all but abandoned around the world thereby making our licences virtually worthless to anyone except Australian employers (bar the odd ICAO system) actually a better way to do things. Seriously, box goes out, box goes in, lightbulb goes out lightbulb goes in. 99% of line maintenance defects rectified.

If I were running an airline, would I by choice have a dozen B2 licenced guys sitting in the smoko room waiting for some work to happen when the B1 guys can certify
for the same stuff ?

There may be this lingering superiority complex amongst some of you guys. My advice, move on and get with the times instead of fighting for the old system which has the true meaning of the word 'legacy'.

there is world of difference between being trained and having the experience and aptitude for any job.
some folks will have the knack, others will not, and it works both ways.

a/f eng guys have had a lot of avio privileges for a long time.many chose not to exercise them, some cant or are not interested for any number of reasons.
same goes for avio people some have it, some have not.

just cos the rest of the world is doing it does not make it right.

it makes it cheaper.over and out.

Few people I know have the ability to truly be expert in all trades on several types.Its a compromise.

Few of todays avio people could polish the shoes of a true radio lame and do not have the experience to tackle truly oddball snags that come along at times.They get fixed eventually but...it takes longer and can cost more.Yes we get by most of the time as the new system will too.
I could fix lots of eng / a/f snags too but I know that J Bloggs has been brought up on jeta1 and would fix it better and faster than me.

the rest of the world went to poo with a capital S because of shonky banking practices.
Oz system had better prudential regulatory structure, not perfect but better.(Pretty obvious where this is going.)

3 years ago the "experts" would have extolled the USA way of doing business and bemoaned lazy balance sheets (ie not enough gearing.)

Masters of the universe,sun gods the lot of those investment bankers.
The same clowns/journos/analysts are now all Mondays experts of the GFC and how the best way was a total sham.Pathetic fellow travelers.

Its just an analogy and wont change a thing, but maybe a toning down of the arrogance by some would be in order.You may get trained on something same as I could on another but you know jackshyte until you've logged quite a few years.

Here, Here.

Just look at what the B1 guy is getting paid for the extra privliges or should I say what they are not getting paid.

Come on there is more to it. Some of the B1 guys that are getting trained have gone from push pull technology to complex digital systems, software, servers and what not. A couple of weeks training doesnt cut it for me.

Some will be capable, some not, but it goes both ways.

The B1 guy will ask for help just as the current Avionic guy asks for Mech assistance from time to time.

How about a bit of equality, makes sense to me.

Reading this thread, I can see that Auss is following behind what UK/Europe has been doing with the JAR66 B1 & B2 licenses. What ever the rubbish the companies feed you aout how they have no plans to reduce staff etc.....just see what airlines in the UK have done. First the techs/mechs achieve their A licence, some airlines will pay extra for it some wont. However if you dont hold the A license then you employment prospects will be a lot more limited. And whenever redundancy situations arrise, you know who will be kept and who wont (this is already a reality for some staff in certain airlines). Once the A licensed staff have their limited approvals, the reliance on LAE is greatly reduced. Yes they are still needed but consider the avaerage line maintenance department, a lot of the LAEs work is the routine checks, now done by 'A'. Minor defects, such as blocked sinks, ovens, boilers, toilets etc, now all done by 'A's. LAEs left to concentrate on non-routine defects, troubleshooting etc. Great for the LAEs but remember there will be a lot less needed. As to B1 & B2, it has reduced the need for B2. B1 can sign for a lot more than ever, and if you think the company will keep as many B2 you are mistaken. We have seen this in airlines in Europe. A licence do the routine, small defects, B1 do the majority of other maintenance, few B2 left to cope with more involved B2 type work.
With the wonderfull UK CAA converting licenses from theold A&C, EIR etc many staff lost certain certification rights when converted over...lets hope CASA make a better job of the conversion.
We have seen this happen in Europe and seen the effect on numbers of LAEs so beware...

Fair point NWT, however being in europe i'm sure you'll know that a lot of the major airlines employ B2 guys who also hold full B1 licenses as well.
Qf have a system in place for B2 guys to hold full B1, check the allowance's appendix of our EBA and it's there.

The 'A' license issue is a major one and i'm sure QF are probably looking at it with a keen eye. To the sparkies out there if you hold your mech basics it is not hard to get a basic B1 as you have all the theory you need for RPL process, you just need to fill in a few worksheets to meet the competency gap between b2 and b1, same as we do when we are converting our A/F ENG to full B1 we only need the theory and electrical competencies. I'm sure in five years time when 20percent of our workforce retires and 50 new 787 and 15 380's arrive Qf will want guys who can basically hold B1 & B2 because at the current rate of attrition and lack of young people coming through, they are going to have a massive problem. Hopefully by then all the fighting amonst us will have gone.

hey changea,
we only fight with each other when the company has been brought to heel.

I look around syd and wonder where the hell are they going to get people to do maint too.hard enough to get parking spots let alone a hangar and arms and legs.
Every time I think of MH telling us the "new gen " aircraft self heal & require no spares.The manpower consumed by the pale whale is staggering compared to what the former eng bosses thought, and that was with a hand picked team.They'll need to clone B1 and B2 by the dozen the way its going.
I think jetstar need people too.

Spanner swingers say this, Sparkies say that it goes on and on
Grow up the company is shovelling us all down the poop shoot while we argue who is going to be the last one shovelling.

A380 agreement is clear, CASA's position not so clear (everchanging in fact just look at the website) instead of slagging off at each other keep an eye out for all LAMEs enemy the 'A' licence.

You blokes are your own worst enemies, (Life's all About ME) as M put it seems more true now than ever.

The Company must love this.... It takes more than 3 weeks to train a sparky or greaser to knows what he is doing.

4 year apprenticeship and at least 4 years on the job training before he is confident of a Type, on his own trade. I would love to see a greaser rewire a landing gear or repair the hundreds of wires blown out by an oxygen tank, or a sparky repair the hole blown out by an by an oxy tank.

It should not be, but this is where we are headed. Nothing but save a few bucks and screw the the lot of you.

Part 66 licencing may work on the line but come to home base, when it really needs to be fixed, a black box change, light bub change, wheel change etc etc does not answer the defect.

Jack of all trades does not FIX anything except the managers bonus.

i think you have "short circuited" yourself mate its only ment for line not base same as MA's you cannot use test equip only the stuff supplied onbd the a/c so get a hold of yourself its not about replacing YOU but in a line situation a mech bloke can use it to get home so you can fix it .......

rim-job's right, there'll be plenty of work for the B2s in the hangar. If you cones want to work the ramp you'll have to go the B1 route...

The rim your probably right, but the worrying thing for us mech's is that 90% of the sparkies at the SIT hold there mech basics, just a few basic worksheets and they are B1, and the other thing is the 380 course is run that the B2 guys sit in on the B1 course as well as the B2, there are numerous sparkies already holding B1 basic, not to many mech's.

There is a bit more to picking up a new trade or trades than a few poxy casa basic's!

If Lame's had more sense they would obstruct any system that undermines real trade training that just creates a bunch of pens that undermines the real trades and the campaign for maintaining safety and standards.

If you undermine the quality of your trade and licence a without proper training and experience a fair reward for your knowledge and experience associated with it will also reduce. A catch 22 really.

I am sick of short sighted bone head LAME's happy to play the system which is purposely being worked by companies via puppetering of CASA.

I understand the ALAEA is addressing the farce of ill qualified LAME's picking up trades without real underpinning knowledge or experience. Yes the very issue that plagues Europe and their Kellog's Licence's that undermines real LAME's over there.

Lame's with type licences after two weeks of training is a real concern. That's politics' and it sux but is being addressed. The FAA is realising it EASA is realising it. Hopefully CASA will grow some teeth.

Harmonisation is a joke if it has no standard enforced. It does not help if we make it work by slipping through the back door that's been left ajar and take trades without real qualification purposefully set to entrap you for your own demise.

Australia has the best system in the world which is being dismantled.

Unfortunately CASA will stumble and fumble like the other reg bodies. The airlines will push the 'economic' line and we know what happens next.

And should we say safest. It may be old, but it works. And remember, large RPT aircraft are not the only aircraft that fly in Austarlia.

rudderless1, I am happy to see there are others out there in lame land that can see past their ego's and see the erosion of our licences.

A380 is the start of the end. The others will find out all be it too late to stem the rot.:ugh:

oh dear...i dont think you blokes have got it yet.....yes we have the best system for LAME's.... buuuut its about to be undone and we will go to the EASA system sometime next year with a sunset clause for ALL LAME's to be transfered to the EASA system in a period of time. Cat A's will be introduced and most B1's[not all] will find themselves in the hanger with the B2's.....this does not mean I agree with it, but just stating facts....we [the union]should get the cat A's in the union so we can have some control over the use of them rather than say ....we are not having them...the rest of the world uses this type of system we will not be able to hold it back....and hey like I said I dont want it but face facts,it will happen

Rim, finally, a sensible post in this thread. Thankyou. I have resisted posting to now. This is not about MECH vs AV, B1 vs B2. The FACT is that CAO 100.66 is here, and very shortly CASR66 will be the licencing system in place. No ifs, no buts- it is a fait accompli. Too late now to bitch about it- you all should have done that years ago when it was first proposed and there was the chance to submit your objections to CASA.
'A' licences are coming. For the company they are very attractive as they will require less training on their part. The ALAEA should embrace the 'A' licence holder as a LAME, and ensure that these licence holders are suitably recognised and renumerated in future EBAs. To do otherwise is to stick your head in the sand and be in denial of what is inevitable. The LAME licencing landscape is changing, and you better adapt.

Rim bold thoughts but true, your prob right most guys will eventually convert there licenses but however it is goin to be complex for people to convert there type ratings to full B1, the LMA training won't cover it as B1 is full elec privliges and the gap training will be to much. Don't think we will see our current types apart from the 380 certified under the Part 66 system however once the 787 arrives most of the 744 and 767's will have gone and yes then full speed ahead for an "A" license tarmac with a few B1's there. I believe the only guys who prob could get a full B1 on the 744 are the Avionic guys who did the mech LMA a few years ago and hold full A/F ENG credits for the 744, apparently a couple of them have converted them to full 5 cat licenses??.

Changeawheel, we will ALL be transitioned to the CASR66 system, as the current CAR31 system will no longer exist. What will happen is that your current licence will be "grandfathered" and you will be issued with, say, a B1.1 "limited" licence that will still encompass your current licence priviledges, but exclude you from those extra electrical ATAs that you have not been trained on. You just need to look at how this system has been introduced in other parts of the world to see our future. i.e. the B1.1 licence is the preferred licence of choice for a line maint organisation, with just a handful of B2 licences to provide that necessary AV support. Heavy or Base Maint is the land of the 'A', B1 and B2 licence.
I'm not advocating one licence system over another, or have a preference for AV or MECH. I'm just trying to state what will be inevitable.
There is no replacement for a AV LAME with 20 years of experience, nor is there any replacement for a sheetmetal worker with 20 years of experience, nor a greaser with 20 years of experience in door rigging, flight control rigging and engine running. Everyone has there own particular set of skills. No-one is a jack of all trades.

Chicken Littles everywhere! To many years under Dixon me thinks.
The sky is not falling.
Remember the A380? 12 to 24 LAME's to introduce M said. Good one M, go an drive your trainset, try not to break it.:yuk:
The A Cat, well where are these coming from? They still need a brain, brains cost money, they still need training, training costs money, they can't troubleshoot, they can't supervise, turnarounds are short, time is money.
I guess we will convert all the AME's to CAT A's oh hang on you need AME's to start with isn't there a problem, I know we will pay them less? I guess we will attract mindless scum on less pay than an AME to be a CAT A for more responsibly not to mention SAFETY? That'll work! Guys wake up:ugh: Have some confidence, be smart and stop the undermining of you valuable licence by shortsighted LAME's taking advantage of your trades and watering them down at the same time.:sad:
Aircraft break, aircraft need fixing, and the bigger they are the more they cost when they stop.
Also is a CAT A really going to bust his hump to undermine a CAT B? I doubt it. B is where he wants to BE (that could be a LAME cliche')
Will a CAT A get paid less than an AME, I doubt it. Think about that one its not real hard.
But a CAT A needs only a CERT 2, an AME is a CERT 4 why would they pay him more? No where in the world do they pay him a CAT A less, usually between and AME and B1. I'd be a bit pissed if I trained for four years and a monkey gets a gig in your area for more money and less training when I am totally capable of doing the role! So I guess any AME would there for expect to be an A CAT, its obvious really and since its a Licence, hmmmm well I would be certain that is ALAEA territory.
Catch 22 really, I hope LAME's do pull there collective heads out of the sand, the FUD was clearing but here we see it has returned, I thought we got rid of that some time ago? Didn't we vote and change few years ago from the rhetoric we knew wasn't true!:=:D
Come on LAME's don't be LAME AGAIN!:mad:

The submission process that CASA put in place had plenty of response, however, it was just a formality put in place for a system that CASA wanted implemented.

Not under the current Qf system of maint.

Ngineer, you are correct. But it IS too late to bitch about it. All we can do is learn to make the most of it. And the current QF system of maintenance will need to change to take in the new CASR66 regs. There is already plenty of movement in this area. eg. the splitting up of the QEPM into the EPM, MCM and the AAOP. Go have a talk to someone from QS & RM. Change is coming- there's no stopping it. So as LAMEs we need to embrace these changes so that we, as a group, can obtain the best outcome for ourselves and for future LAMEs ie. the apprentices and AMEs who will obtain part 66 licences as their 1st licence. Us current LAMEs are going to be stuck in a "transition" period, but for the LAMEs of tomorrow part 66 will be all they know. We need to get onboard to secure our own future and the future of the LAMEs of tomorrow.

yes they did complain about it .....i remember tim H telling us that we should embrace the cat A's as they will be comming and will boust the numbers in OUR union,and we will be able to control them.....as for "brainless1" idear that the pay system will hold them back...remember that a cat A will only have to do a few years to become one as a full AME will still have to do four years so there is the carrot for them get in early and receive a payment earlier...mmmmm sounds nice..and yes FMU all present LAME's will be turned into B1&B2's ....hey with a payment,now I can just see a EBA ...get a payment for becomming a EASA type LAME and agree to cat A's ....let me get some feed back on that one....:(

As some have already said, it's past the point of no return for CASR66.

No doubt the company's goal is to train most current and new AMEs to A licence supplementing the B1 and B2 LAMEs with the obvious wage savings that will bring. Hopefully, with fleet expansion and so many guys close to retirement age there won't be too many current LAMEs displaced.

We (the ALAEA) should embrace the A licence "LAMEs" with the aim of minimising the pay diference between an A and the equivalent full B1 or B2, establishing quota control and bolstering membership.

yes jet-a .....the number of LAME's who will be signing off over the next few years will pave the way for cat A's and we should have them in our fold

Rim,
Best you read my post again,
no need to get offensive, the fact is there is only so little a person will work for and be capable of doing a job! QF or other airlines can't attract or certainly retain any decent AME's on the money they pay. I thought you may have noticed this?
A CAT's take more responsibility, though less trained but facts show they still draw atleast the same but generally more than an AME in income, can you see the problem yet?
A Cat's are coming, so what, is there a "real benefit"? In my opinion not really. In 35 minute turnarounds with most of that lost, do you waste those valuable moments seeking a B cat? A CAt's will be AME's reallocated by default, the only difference is who will represent them.
A Cat's are not for the hangar either, period.
Yes, I embrace the new system, mech's to B1 and av's to B2 + B1 limited, nice crossover in the middle to allow the flexibility of personal provided real training and qualifications are received. No one's toes are stepped on, equal remuneration for equal scopes of work.
Nothing much will change in a hurry, the aging workforce will be seen safely to the door without any angst. New comers will be trained, the longer the company waits the greater the pain will be for the company. :ugh::ok:
Don't know about redundancies, they may just have to wait.
Things are changin' but in aviation we always know it will be slow and painful and generally wrong:(.

If most AMEs end up with an A licence and in the association it would make it very difficult for the company to implement a scab force that relies on AMEs for arms and legs in future disputes...

Good point Jet A1. More numbers can only be a good thing.

Now about that scab workforce that is slowly filtering back into base maintenance.................

Now that the 380 LAMEs jobs are all sorted, what is the latest with the AME jobs?