AIP,
The whole point of ICAO Airspace Classification is that the risk level is the same in all classes ---- as the traffic increases, so does the CNS/ATM input ---- the intended result is that the target separation assurance level is achieved, regardless of traffic level.

I highly recommend a good look at some of the Eurocontrol publicly available detail, they actually publish an estimate of the levels achieved --- a commitment to a published performance standard, and a "how goes it". In my view, highly commendable. Australia is, sadly, one countries that does not publish such performance standards, much less produce reports on whether such standards have been achieved.

For some interesting studies on this whole subject, have a look for some of work of Roak Manor Research and Bureau Veritas, both European based, both have done work (risk analysis) on airspace design in Australia.

Owen Stanley,
Given the symptoms you consistently exhibit here and elsewhere, do you also foam at the mouth?? If you do, there is a very high statistical probability you have rabies --- sorry, I forgot you think statistical method is all s----.

As I have said to you before, religious freedom is in our Constitution, your beliefs are your business, but they certainly have no place in rational airspace management planning.

Tootle pip!!

Ferris, there are times when a controller at Albury is as busy as a controller in an FAA tower.

That's when the accident will happen!

Are you suggesting that the CASA criteria for class D is far more stringent than the FAA one? If so you are clearly wrong.

We should actually have 9 more class D towers if we have the same ratio of planes/twrs as per the USA.

What is the critera for establishment of a Class D tower in the US, and what is the criteria for the level of staffing?

Mr Smith, I have told you this 3 times now, and you've ignored me every time (guess that makes me more the fool).

Here

here

and here

:ugh:

Trying to discuss this with an Air Traffic Controller is futile. It seems that most are more concerned with protecting the status quo. It's always the same old line about staff shortages but notice how the staff shortage discussion went dead quiet once the payrise deal went through...coincidence?

That staff shortage line is old and tired and if it was really such an issue then your union would have continued the statistics on their website (they were no longer updated when the pay deal went through).

I am sure that Australian controllers are excellent controllers but maybe are not the experts that they think they are when it comes to airspace change. I'm not saying that Dick is the main expert - in fact, he is trying to find someone who could be, and I say well done for that.

Baileys,

The staff shortage is still there. Airservices is no longer releasing NOTAMs for many occurences due "staff shortage" or "staff availability" in situations when prior to the CA they did. This seems to be a concerted effort on their part. Civil Air members are recording as best they can instances when this is happening.

This includes when there are not enough controllers on shift, when the airspace is not technically closed, but the controller is absent from the console leaving someone (anyone) non-rated to supervise the console for up to 20 minutes on what is called the "short break procedure". It is akin to a pilot being able to leave the cockpit and leave a non-rated pilot, a cabin crew member or airline manager in the cockpit so long as they don't touch anything and call in the pilot if something happens. This is occuring because there are not enough staff on hand to provide for proper breaks. The industry is not told about when this procedure is taking place. There is no data because Airservices does not notify industry the way it used to.

Baileys, you have been told on this forum that the resources to manage and update the data has been subject to volunteer work - something that has not been sustainable for the long term. With the new CA just coming in now, Association delgates and staff are up to their eyeballs in countering/querying management interpretations of the agreement through the use of very fatiguing rosters and other matters. They can't be everywhere at once.

The staff shortage is also affecting Airservices' ability to train new staff. New trainees in the Academy have had 1 instructor per 2 trainees. During a sim, the instructor can only concentrate on one trainee at a time (generally on the high sector and the low sector (Class G/E) gets unobserved), and the only time there is one on one is during a final check run whereby any of the systematic mistakes that have been missed throughout training get picked up with the possibility of failure for the trainee.

Baileys, if you are saying there is no staff shortage, then ask a controller when was the last time they received simulator refresher training for in-flight emergency response, or radar/computer system failure. It is due to the staff shortage that this hasn't happen for years.

To put this back on topic - any airspace changes like G to E are going to involve planning/projects/training that ASA cannot do right now because it's trying to keep its head above water simply providing "business continuity".

Hi Jerricho, Hi Plaz.............

The staff shortage discussion went dead quiet for the following reason:
Airservices stopped trying to blame airspace closures on controllers taking industrial action.

Mission accomplished, as far as those at the top are concerned. They have had another 12 months of receiving their incredible salary packages, while basically the same circus rolls on.
One might ask why Greg Russell hasn't been brought to account for his claim before senate estimates that the staff shortage would be solved (by the hiring of many new controllers) by August 08. All that's happened is that people are doing $hitloads of overtime and they are spreading people even thinner (see posts above about unmanned console procedures etc.) in order to keep the airpsace open. Yes, the staff have probably contributed to the perception that the staff shortage claim was an industrial furphy by doing all the overtime, but it's probably not a good time to get fired for not doing it, either. How a first world country can have consoles open in order to hide the fact that they don't have the staff to have them manned with a rated controller is just incredible.

In the international arena, AsA is viewed with either admiration (for the gall to get away with such stunts) or as a complete joke. But everyone really appreciates them releasing all those controllers to anybody else that doesn't have enough staff, or has neglected training :D

So, Baileys, how does it feel to be treated with the contempt that Russell and co do, by swallowing their bull$hit? Do you wonder if they snigger while they count the cash?

Q: How does it feel to be treated with the contempt that Russell and co do?
A: Feels great, laughing from the outside.

Q: Do you wonder if they snigger while they count the cash?
A: No, I'm sure that they do.

Ferris, if the airlines had a staff shortage problem and continued to earn income by flying their planes with just one pilot where a two pilot crew was required, or not doing the required maintenance, CASA would quite clearly take action.

From what you are saying, Airservices has a safety deficiency but CASA is taking no action. I would tend to agree that is possible. The Office of Airspace Regulation does absolutely nothing. In the two years it has been in existence, I cannot think of any material change it has made. Someone will need to do something about this before more accidents (like the one at 2RN) happen.

Baileys. It's not often you find someone who admits to enjoying being fooled, but there you go. :rolleyes:

Dick. A point we agree on. But as many will argue (incl you yourself), CASA has been MIA for a while.

CASA don't have the nuts.

Hi Atlas!!!

Looks like Mr Smith is ignoring me again.

Oh well. When the truth doesn't tie in with what you're trying to argue, it can sting a little I guess.

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com...6596992453.jpg

Do you really need the photo to make a point??? It just makes it difficult to read.

I agree with Dick here - if Airservices has a serious safety deficiency but CASA is taking no action there is something seriously wrong.

But Air Traffic Controllers, being the professionals that they are, would surely be officially reporting such serious safety allegations - especially if they are regularly happening and are real. If the reports are routinely being ignored then these safety breaches should be reported, in writing, to someone further up the "chain".

Of course, there might be a problem if ATC's consider something a safety problem but the Safety Managers and CASA don't. Then somebody is obviously wrong or wrongly informed or mistaken. Either way it is up to the employees of an organisation to report serious safety breaches....is this actually happening or are people just having a complain.

Stop feeding the trolls!
 

If these muppets (Baileys,Led Sled Dick) had any idea of the way things ACTUALLY happened overseas, they would shut the f**k up before Oz went on a huge recruitment drive and tripled it's number of controllers, made just about everything an upgraded class of airspace from what is currently there, with the commensurate increase in charges.
UK, Ireland, The Middle East, Germany, Canada and the States etc, all have staffing shortages BUT, they don't implement obviously unsafe work practices like abandoning the console to unrated staff, or attempt to get controllers compelled to work on their days off.
Over here, your days off are your days off, if YOU wish to come in, you do, if not, they don't even ring you up!
Just recently the IAA decided that single person operations would not be introduced, so we have two people per console (meaning technically now we are more understaffed than we would have been)...an executive and a planner H24, regardless of traffic levels.

BTW keep it up Plaz and Jerricho, I for one like the photos, only someone that can't concentrate for more than a few seconds can't see the message.:E