Yep, at VB we extend the flaps to takeoff setting as the first item of the after start scan, as soon as the last engine is started. At the end of that scan the recall is checked then the engineer is bade farewell.

The Eastern part of DJ does it a little different, setting the flap when the dispatch signal is received from the gingerbeer.

Perversely the difference is due to fear of banging a Powerpush, even though PB use them at only one small port and VB use them at 6 or more ports. Must be something someone brought from JetConnect.

nz1009
 

In the domestic arena in Oz flaps/slats are usually extended whilst the engineer is still hooked up.I always look but there is no specific instruction to check for this.Tech crew just look at the lights.
Some airlines dont use tech trained dispatch people so could go un-noticed.Its an unusual event in any case .

Remember the oz jet landing incident,similar circumstances and they were lucky to get back on the ground.Well done to the the ground engineer who spotted the the u/s krueger flap.

Suck it in Princess, there's no AN punching bag around to deflect attention now!;)

For Christ's sake Buster. Build a bridge and get over it. Move on with your life. AN died 8 years ago and she aint coming back!!!

....:ugh:

Perhaps the :wink: smiley is too subtle for some.....:rolleyes:

Many many years ago when China airlines / Air China (If my memory serves) flew the 747SP, The crew would ask the engineer to physically check and confirm the flaps were extended before disconnect.

Never been an official procedure in QF to my knowledge to inform the techies of confirmation of flap extension.

Don't the RAAFies check flap extension and retraction prior to each sortie?

Thanks for the replies. From what I can gather, a member of the tech crew does a walk around when the slats/flaps are stowed, the aircraft is eventually pushed back, engines started, wings totally reconfigured for flight either before or shortly after the ground engineer disconnects (if thats what dispatched means). However, even if the wings are reconfigured while the ground engineer is still connected, checking them is not an item on their checklist. So it was just through luck, rather than good procedures, that in this case the problem was detected prior to take-off.

Keg,

The Aircraft I flew had the flaps run out and in while a member of the crew was outside doing a walk around inspection and it was a co-ordinated task to check flaps, ailerons, rudders, landing and taxi lights for each walk around. We then taxi'd with the flaps in the take off position. One of the reasons for this is that the flaps in the take off position also assisted emergency egress from the overwing exits.

My current aircraft deploys the flaps to the take off position after engine start, which can be just before or after the engineer disconnects depending on the speed of things. The exception to this is if operating in cold weather ops where the flaps are extended at the holding point, due slush etc.

Cheers

get over it ....these things happen with older aircraft do we want the engineer to stay hooked up till the aircraft gets airbourne so he ....or she can see something thats not right and tell the crew....get real if its not right the flt deck indications will tell them...on later aircraft lets all do our jobs correctly ............i sometimes live in the past but we all should move forward....aircraft have so should we......

I wouldn't call it luck. It's the sort of thing that you can count on when everyone involved in the operation sees aviation as a career, not a job to do for a few months until they move on and load trucks or drive taxis.

NZ1009, sounds like you are looking really really hard to find a negative view of this....total of two posts...pretty much zero knowledge of operations.......not a journo are you? If not I apologize for the inference and welcome to PPRUNE, how long have you been interested in aviation? What sort of licence do you have? Do you aspire to the airlines or have you just become interested in this push-back because it caught your eye?
Regards, Framer.

ojk ojm towing damage
 

Hi All

qf lame in flight deck;
qf lame driving tug;
forstaff ame phones [ first time on headset];
forstaff wing walkers

the tug driver instructed the poor bastard on the phones to have a go , he was in the tug ,he should have been walking beside the tug watching the wing walkers, his leading hand the tug driver should have given better info to the first timer.
The tug driver was going to fast , GUNG HO WAS THE TERM USED !!!

Sexy beast if these are the facts, and I don't doubt you, then this is going to hurt for those involved I would think.
Driving a tug too fast whilst towing is just stupid, I had a tug driver floor it once when pushing back from SIT because I woke him from his slumber, I had to run to keep up, not a pleasant experience.

Pretty daft comment.It sounds like you are supporting a Lame less tarmac.Lame's are highly trained and can spot defects that even the pilots have missed.I will give you one example, a few years ago here in oz the first officer had completed his preflight external walk on a B737.They were already to go when the Lame notified the captain to tell him the no1 engine had suffered a bird strike and some fan blades were damaged.On further investigation after a borescope inspection more bent blades were found in the high press compressor rotor assy.The engine was then removed for rectification..To the untrained eye this bird strike damage was not readily evident and the aircraft would of been sent on its way with a possible in flight shut down.

Framer
 

>NZ1009, sounds like you are looking really really hard to find a negative view
>of this....total of two posts...pretty much zero knowledge of
>operations.......not a journo are you?
> If not I apologize for the inference and welcome to PPRuNe,

Not trying hard at all with just two posts - was going to do a third one along the lines of:

So some tech crew configure the flaps/slats while the ground engineer is still connected, I guess in the expectation they will receive some comment if there is a problem. But we are told by 'ampclamp' "but there is no specific instruction to check for this.Tech crew just look at the lights." which is apparently okay because, as 'ampclamp' states, "Its an unusual event in any case ." (for things to go wrong). As for the tech crew just looking at the lights, that is also okay because, as stated by 'the rim', "get real if its not right the flt deck indications will tell them" but, of course, the flight deck indications didnt tell them in this case.

Talk about left hand / right hand and blind faith in electronics / computers!

Thanks for both the apology and welcome. Not really sure why the rest is relevant but you did ask and if I don't respond I will be branded as a journo.

>how long have you been interested in aviation?

Since I was about 10 years old I guess. Did get accepted into the RNZAF as a pilot trainee but a small medical condition they later uncovered put paid to that (my PPrune nick-name is the serial number of an RNZAF Harvard training aircraft inspired by a rather neat photo that came out when I was a kid).

>What sort of licence do you have?

Just a PPL, most SE ratings, about 300 (big deal, I know) hours or so in C152 - C210 plus some gliding time plus lots of real flight time as a sky-diver.

>Do you aspire to the airlines or have you just become interested in this
>push-back because it caught your eye?

No, never did aspire to join the airlines. An academic in an Australian University in the computing area, currently on sabbatical in the Northern Hemisphere (which is why I post in the middle of the night - so no, not a journo creating the morning edition).

I guess I am interested in this because, as far as I know, larger aircraft will be lucky to get of the ground if there is a significant problem with the flaps/slats and this will not become apparent until they are at high speed near the end of the runway. Most other flight safety components are inspected in their take-off configuration so was just wondering about the checking procedure for this rather significant item. Cant say the overall picture from the responses fills me with much confidence. I guess configuring for landing is different as there is a lot more time available to diagnose a problem and maybe you can still land with flaps/slats retracted(?)

Have sent my details by PM so you can check me out on the Internet using Google if you like. It will confirm that I really am just SLF with a little interest in my own self preservation.

satos i think you missed the point that i was making ....i am against a lame-less tarmac and yes with the pilot as well as the lame doing a walkaround is the best ...but how long after push back does the lame need to be there...thats all

Ojm Flys Away
 

Hi Superlame,
just to let you know one of the aircraft involved in the towing incident left Avalon @1440hrs vh-ojm had extensive repairs carried out to the o/b l/h wing where it contacted the radome of ojk.
The repairs were carried out by a team of Forstaff sheetmetal workers who did an excellent job under great pressure from the boys in suits
I hope the put on a barbie for the people involved!

REGARDS ,SEXY BEAST

...at the very least, a Roast!!!

Apologies mate I might of jumped the gun there.

I think the Lame should be there till just after the aircraft is set up in its takeoff configuration.
Cheers mate.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...8112008004.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...8112008001.jpg

NZ1009,

Good stuff mate, I have to admit I really did think you were a journo but added the questions to make it look like I was giving benefit of doubt.:O

300hrs is probably enough to have an appreciation of the constant trade off between safety and getting the job done. There is always a trade off ,otherwise we would never start the engines for fear of an engine fire.
The question is where do we draw the line?
eg Did you have a LAME do a walk around of your C152 after engine start and do a "sniff check" to ensure no fuel/oil leaks , no obstructions in front of prop etc? Of course not. Would it be a good idea to do that on an airliner? Sure....what size though? A 19 seat turbo prop? Fifty seat turbo-prop? Jet a/c only? Wide-bodies only? Where is that line ???
If you ask the bean-counters who employ LAMES you will get a different answer than if you ask the LAMES, or the A380 captain, or the SLF.
I personally think a specific check by the LAME that the leading edge devices are out is a good idea.
Have fun up north . Cheers for the PM, Framer.

Nice pics Hempy. I also liked the one by Jet Crew on page 3. Does anyone know if the black plastic and tape on Jet Crews pics was a perm or temp repair?

Only permanent if it was high speed tape.:}

The 743 with the flap problem in SYD was 2 sectors away from being retired.:uhoh:

It will now be repaired at a cost of nearly $1 mill so it can be flown to Arizona for scrapping.

I thought that they could get the parts cheaply off EBU, the long term blue resident of Avalon.

A Cathay 744 being towed at AMS collided with a parked KLM MD11 with damage to both aeroplanes in full view of passengers and media....and you know what? People moved on!

Actually, I think it had been retired. It was called in to operate the CHC service after a 767 went u/s.

I have a question. I have heard that Qantas will never scrap an aircraft on home soil. This is for 2 reasons;

1. The environmental damage is too great or unlawful. I.e. there are a lot of fluids to mop up and also depleted Uranium in the mass-balances.

2. Qantas won't allow a scrapping in Oz because its just too detrimental to their Public Relations.

If this is true, why have they let VH-EBU rot in the open in Avalon? It will obviously never fly again. Anyone know the story?

I don't know if that's their policy or not but, you can always contain the fluids
if the area is set up right. The mass balance weights are bolt on items so these
could easily be removed and disposed of correctly.

As for public relations I could see no reason why it could not be disassembled inside a hangar out of Joe Public's view.

I believe there are some issues with the sealants that are used between lap and butt joints when the aluminum goes
to the furnace but I would think there would some work arounds by now especially with the large amount of metal
processed out of the bone yards in the US.

I find this very interesting but what is a "mass balance" item ? I have tried googling it but nothing.

simsalabin,

Boeing stopped using depleted Uranium as counterweights in the 1980's, but it was used as a trim weight (denser than lead) on outboard elevator and upper rudder assemblies.

simsalabim,

Mass balancing gives equal mass about the hinge line. Flight control surfaces MUST be "mass balanced" to avoid in flight flutter and, simply, destruction of the airframe.

Obviously, the smallest physical mass of "stuff" which will balance is best, hence dense metals. As it happens, depleted uranium is more dense than lead and can be protected, or more to the point kept out of contact with people like us, by proper surface treatment. It is not a good idea to work the depleted uranium using any sort of tools unless you know what you are up to and are properly protected.

Try this link

Civil aircraft register - Search CASA's aircraft register

Put in EBU

It is not even registered anymore.

And here's Qantas taking 'servicable' parts of it for their current fleet.

ie. fwd pressure bulkhead I hear!

How is a deregistered aircraft not fit to be a parts source, the bone yards would go broke pronto.

Perhaps we should get that rudder off OJA after all it came out of the bone yard, ex EBS.

Torqueman I think you are being told crap. The fwd bulkhead would not be a component that you swap between aircraft.
I could be wrong, but all the rivet holes would be drilled aircraft specific rather than using a drill jig. So using a second hand item would require lots of oversized fastener holes.
Not something you want in the pressure bulkhead.

Yes no mucking around with dodgy pressure bulkhead repairs.... as JAL (via a Boeing repair) found out - a very delicate bit of gear. I remember seeing on Nat Geo very recently the boeing team repairing an Air Seychelles 767 aft pressure bulkhead - they werent taking any chances.... (well so it appeared to the viewer).

This thread needs a wind.

I am told that this incident was a result of a lack of local towing procedures and nothing else.
Next time they will have to back the aircraft away from the parking mark before they start to turn, it seems that the extra length of the tow bar and tug were not taken into consideration until this incident.

Apparently the engineers involved did not lose their jobs, can't confirm or deny this point.

Also, what is the status of OJK - is it back in service?

VH-OJK returned to service on January 18.