DM you are either naive or stupid I'm not sure which, if you had the foresight to do a little basic fact gathering before you put fingers to keyboard, you may have tempered your comments.

The airlines are hurting - oh dear how sad with Q and JS still posting profits (note that last word profits that means that they are taking in more money than they are paying out - got that). And the big V still hasn't posted a loss, most of the 400 jobs that will go will be by natural attrition.

If you want AsA to lower their charges then get the airlines to lobby the government to stop AsA paying the government a dividend (like that would happen - when was the last time a government did something like that)

BTW the charges are set in consultation with the airlines and with the blessing of the Aust Competition Commission (or what ever it is called) and were set for 5 years. So blame the government and if the Airlines are hurting so much they would be lobbying the government so loudly that even the laziest and most regurgitative reporter would be cuting and pasting some of their PR output into his/her articles.

As for what do you think ATC have been doing for the last 10 years tiddlywinks - they took a hit for 9/11 and the demise of Ansett - they did the "right thing" during the SARS epidemic and in the last CA they were threatened with the most draconian work place legislation since the Pit Ponies were afforded a better life than the mine workers and their children.

Enough of my venting my spleen - you truly prove the old adage that

A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING

Dangermouse
 

You need to speak to the government about that. It is NOT, I repeat, NOT the fault of ATCOs how much the government taxes airpsace users.
The government, clever negotiators, AsA 'managers', or stooges on pprune might endeavour to make ATCs feel guilty for asking for a payrise in the current economic circumstances, but until AsA stops paying the government a dividend of about $100 million each year, only absolute dills would buy it. ATCs have no capacity do get "extra" when times are good- the government just gets more tax remitted via avcharges.
If it is truly in the national interest to restrict cost increases levied on the industry during these tough times, the answer is not to ask ATCs to shoulder MORE of the burden. Simply ask the government to reduce it's impost on the industry.
You might ask why doesn't AsA simply cost-recover?

For what it's worth, WELLCONCERNED is right about this one... sorry guys but Air Traffic Controllers display only one category of intelligence to any high degree, Spatial Reasoning.

Depending on which model of intelligence you use, there are eight different categories of intelligence, of which, it could be argued that Air Traffic Control requires three in particular... Spatial Reasoning, Mathematics and Language (English Comprehension). Spatial Reasoning is the only area that is tested, exercised and observed in application to a high level. Simple mathematics fast and accurate... we don't use any University level mathematics in the course of our duties. To be honest, a Year 10 school leaver could display the mathematics required for the job. English comprehension to a very basic level only... the job uses codified language to a great extent and the use of non-standard phraseologies is not permitted... isn't it? :E

Sorry, Quokka, I beg to differ. Your post may be tongue-in-cheek, but you address a point made by "wellconcerned"- a point I was going to ignore in order to starve the troll.
However, the ATC skill set is special, despite management's desires (generic ratings :rolleyes: ). You will have seen/met any number of spacial reasoners who couldn't do the job, any number of very intelligent individuals train who dont get a license? Maybe it's their inability to make decisions under pressure, to deal with stress, to deal with shift work, to deal with boredom, or to cope with the constant amount of bull$hit raining down on them from above. Whatever- the skill set required is a blend of intelligence/mindset/temperament etc. and is found in only a subset of 'spacial reasoners'.
Certainly, whilst most of the pressure in the job results from trying to be commercially expeditious, errors are life-threatening, whatever the likes of the "wellconcerned"s say.

I must have slept through my Middle East security check.

Hahahaaha, Well Concerned is easily my favourite so far.

For those reading, you are aware he is AsA management? Appears that he may be jeopardising 'Good Faith Bargaining' here. Um Ah.

Wellconcerned,

Speaking of the BOS Review...How can Airservices, as an organisation that claims that it recruits and promotes on merit, promote the person that had the incident that led to the BOS Review to 'front line' ATC Management . How can management have any credibility at all when things like this happen?

Explain that one.

Quokka and Wellconcerned,
If the skill set for ATC's is not that special why does a world wide shortage of ATC's present a significant problem for all ANSP's?
If ATC's skills are so common why do ANSP's poach from one another?
Why are Aussie ATC's in particular so sought after?
Why is the pass rate so poor?
Why with all the facilities available to the Academy they cannot produce at least enough to cover the losses?

Having done a degree I can tell you the wealth of knowledge and skill set is not reproducible by a run of the mill uni course!
The knowledge part maybe because any person who can study can achieve a result. The development of the necessary skills and attributes are not!
We have had many A+ bookworms who have failed due to an inability to recognise patterns, adapt and come up with multiple solutions to a given problem. They aften are O.K. for routine traffic, but useless when things get complicated, busy or when handling unexpected emergencies!
Others bug out because they find it too stressful or can't handle the shift work!

I think the results of past recruiting speaks for itself!
We are not that common!

:ok:

wellconcerned, thanks for the advice. I'll tell you what..........

Luckily there will be another opening in Brissy center as i am heading to the fatherland for a bit, its a perfect oportunity for you to jump in my spot.
As you said, its not that hard and any monkey could do it, and our conditions are excellent. so go for it champ. Btw. don't expect to ever have a weekend off. Btw. expect to be called 4-5 times a day to come into work. Btw. don't expect to get rec leave when you want it. Btw. expect to sit in one spot and look at one screen for upto 3-4 hours in one stint because there isn't enough staff. Btw when you rock up to the college you can expect an early mark, you'll be escorted off the site by security when you fail like 75% of my course.

I'm sick of this sh!t and so i AM going.

Tschuss

Luigi: savadamoney
 

If you are, as your post suggests, airline management: your first port-a-call in cost reduction could be with the overpaids in your (and other's) companies.

ATC's don't see the seats (your problem, load factors); they just stop them (aircraft) bumpin' into each other!

GR

Well concerned: U R A
 

Dwnce, dwnce, dwnce

With the going on's at ASA at present I thought it might be a good time to deliver my (stolen) new leadership training package to be delivered to all managers (think leadership workshop)

Cheers

http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/presentations/General_Colin_Powell_on_Leadership.pps

av8trflying,
Good presentation! Very insightful!
Thanks

or the fact that the B#$tards got rid of the ping pong table! oh and the 12mil white elephant "cough" tower sim

Ping pong table? You mean the one that has been there for decades?:ok:

Let me guess, it was an OH&S issue? (you might loose an eye :=) Distraction:bored:? Or was someone just been plain miserable?:(

yeah the same ping pong table...... that bouncing white ball was all that kept alot of us sane during our course there. I think it was either an OH&S issue or people were having too much fun, one of the two...... i'm not down with the nuts and bolts of the tower sim, but the problems used to be that the software was sh*t and it required a small squadron of blippies to run the thing as the voice recognition wasnt working.

Academy tales
 

Rec room that housed much lamented tennis table is now course 'classroom' due shortage of proper classrooms.
Popular Delivery Manager moved sideways (sacked) due to disagreements with psychopath boss.
His temporary replacement lasted a week and is now on sick leave.
That makes 5 good delivery managers who have been forced from/left while still sane in the last 18 months.
Tower/TMA course coordinator now a blippie as instructors doing it have been badly burned by said psychopath.
2 instructors leaving shortly due $50k payrise to do traffic.
Academy now truly dysfunctional.

Iron Bar -

1st, there is no 'signing' (certification) until there is a vote.
2nd, there was no strike planned.

To be absolutely correct, negotiations are not yet completed but expected to be by tomorrow evening.
Hopefully!

when that first pay rise is being converted to pints at the pub, then i'll believe it, until then, i am going to plan on the peanuts i get every second thursday being the same for the foreseeable future.